Gun Storage Responsibility

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

ARTiger

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
803
I had a discussion with a friend today where he was telling me about the recent burglary of his home (nice house in a midtown area of a big city).

The thieves stole some jewelry, electronics and most of his guns including an AK, 2 AR's, an SKS, 5 Semi-auto pistols, 3 shotguns and about 1,000 rounds of various ammo. [They somehow missed the .357 in his nightstand.]

He was bent about the violation of his home, etc., but the general attitude was; "it all was insured and I even paid extra for insuring the jewelry and guns additionally." He did indeed get paid a good bit by insurance to include what I though at least the replacement cost of his guns. (He wanted advice on buying new guns.)

So then I asked where he kept his guns within his house. Turns out, he had them all in an unlocked closet on shelves and stood up with the ammo right there as well. I suggested a good gun safe would be a wise first investment to which he replied "hey that's what insurance is for".

I may have been a bit out of bounds (and I'd like some thoughts on this) . . .
He ended up getting somewhat of a lecture about how I thought it was irresponsible to just worry about the value of the guns when he just armed the bad guys in his area with 4 battle rifles, 3 shotguns, 5 pistols and a supply of ammo for all of them. He still has a "not my problem" attitude about it. I told him to just go buy a case of Lorcins to give the next group of crooks some guns they would be used to.

I'm reconsidering my friendship with this guy. Am I being too self-righteous about it? And what are your all's thoughts on having a responsibility to store the guns you own safely for more than just preserving the value you have in them?
 
I may have been a bit out of bounds
Click to expand...

Nope. Not at all.

Firearms are very powerful tools. In the wrong hands they can be used for very evil purposes. How :banghead: would he feel if one of his rifles was used in a crime 3 days later?

I don't have a lot of money, but still managed to at least get a StackOn gun cabinet and bolt it to the wall. Probably take a thief 5 minutes with a crowbar, but it's better than nothing.

We have a responsibility to get TRAINED and store our guns SECURELY as best we can. Honestly I understand some of the anti's arguments and can sympathize.
 
ARtiger, while I see where you're coming from, the thugs would have gotten his firearms anyway, unless he had a heavy, honest-to-goodness safe (which everyone should have.) So, while I do agree that he should have made it a little harder for them to get a hold on his firearms, I don't think it was as grave a responsibility as you're making it out to be. We should be more worried about making sure those thugs get taken off the street.

-Sans Authoritas
 
I had a couple (man and woman) decide it was an easy day by breaking into my house at midnight. Luckily my roomate caught them before they took much and they missed my unlocked firearms. Now, I have a dakota safe and hope that no one steals anything from me because I can't bolt it down (apartment).

I believe it is our responsibility to make sure that we provide some means of making sure our guns don't end up in a criminals hand. Now, my 12 gauge that isn't locked up... well that's another story :)
 
I think you are right. It sould always take more than just picking it up to get. When I decided that I was going to become a gun owner, the first thing I did was buy a safe. All I have is a pistol, so I just got a 1.2 Foot safe. I saved up for it, and made sure I had it before I bought the gun. On top of that, I have a trigger lock, and the cable lock that came with it. Those go it when I leave the house and come off when I get home. The safe waighs 200Lbs by itself.
 
Had an 'almost' similar situation at my house...stopped a robbery before it 'got into the house',they didnt know I was home obviously.At that time,I didnt have a gun safe (now have 3) and 2 closet vaults,and no more guns and ammo laying around.

Gun ownership is a responsibility,so is its secure place in the home.
 
He shouldn't be blasé about it.... I would feel guilty as all get out if I armed a thief in my neighborhood... and I would be worried about it coming back on me as well (assuming his arms were registered in his name, this may not be the last he hears about this.... or the knowledge that your local thief is now very well armed... against you or anyone else)

If ignorance led to his not locking them in the first place, it certainly can't be blamed if it happens again now.
 
Safe? or Locker?

My feelings are do what you can afford. For years I could not afford either so I put a dead bolt on a closet with a renforced door and frame(free found them on the side of road). Later I bought a thin sheet metal locker from sprots authority. I keep in in my unfinished second floor(converted attic) unless you know where it it a common theif would never look for it where it is. None the less. So what if you can not afford the $4000 liberty safe do what you can anything is better than just sitting in the corner or under the bed.
 
Got hit last year while at church. I thought I had my "ready rifles" in the trunk but had left them on the pool table--made it easy for them. Lost a Colt AR, mini, FR-8, camera, etc. To top it all they stole my dog food bag also. Now that really ticked me off-lol. Now I have a double lock metal cabinet with the door reinforced with 1/2" bar stock and bolted to the wall. Not much but will slow the scum a bit. The safe is loaded so had to do something. Now I have "ready rifles" about but would not advise anyone shooting them. Will check at the hospitals if they come up missing. wc
 
he just armed the bad guys in his area with 4 battle rifles, 3 shotguns, 5 pistols and a supply of ammo for all of them.
Click to expand...

Playin' Devil's Advocate here just a little...

While the gun owner does have a certain responsibility to take reasonable steps to secure his weapons against unauthorized access, keeping his doors locked would seem to be a reasonable step...and I don't think that the burglary and resulting theft of his guns being viewed as "arming" the bad guys is quite a fair assessment.

He didn't willingly arm them, and seeing it that way sorta plays into the anti-gun side's agenda. They armed themselves during the commission of a felony. He's guilty of carelessness, but he isn't guilty of arming anyone. That he may possibly be held partly responsible would be a travesty of justice and a sad statement of the way that guns and gun ownership is viewed in this country.

If they had found a set of car keys...stolen his SUV, and used it to deliberately plow it into a group of elementary schoolers on a field trip to the museum...should he be held responsible or charged as an accessory? No.

If they'd taken his kitchen cutlery set and used the knives to hack people up...should he be held accountable for not securing his implements of mass beef destruction? No.

Feeling that the guy is co-responsible is a slippery slope that leads to the mindset that we're currently seeing in the UK, where I wouldn't be at all surprised if they soon required all homeowners to secure ANYTHING that's a potential weapon in a heavy vault...right down to forks and spoons. All that's needed to turn a spoon into a knife is a brick and a little time. Ask any prison guard.

So...Let's assign responsiblity to the guilty, and hold them solely responsible for their crimes rather than penalize the honest man.

For the record...I keep all my guns locked up, except for the one that I keep with me, and the double shotgun that I keep in the bedroom...and I unload the shotgun and hide the ammunition in another room in the morning...or slip it into my pocket if I'm going to be around the house. It's just the sensible thing to do. Not everyone can afford a proper safe, nor can many apartment dwellers even have one in the apartment because of structural load bearing limits.
 
In my den, I have these, as well as two other safes. I keep my ammo locked in older sheet metal barrel lock safes.
I am much more concerned about arming criminals, than I am about the money.
Despite 1911 Tuner's well thought out response, I have to disagree. Common sense and prudence require us to take steps even when we know that by not doing so, we would not be held accountable. Many gun thefts are the result of someone knowing you have them.

img1667.jpg
 
Common sense and prudence require us to take steps even when we know that by not doing so, we would not be held accountable.
Click to expand...

Agreed 100%, and without argument.
I advise anyone who keeps firearms in their home to aquire something more secure than hiding them in the closet or under the mattress...if at all possible. It's just good policy.

However...Should the gun owner not have the wherewithal nor the structure required to support the weight of such a safe...should he forego his constitutional right to keep and bear arms...just because a thief may gain access to his home? Should it come to a choice of having a safe or giving up the guns?

That's a very slippery slope that's led Great Britain into what is quickly becoming an untenable position for honest, law-abiding people.
 
I live in a farmhouse built in the 17th century. I barely think I can support my ammo, and certainly not a safe anywhere but the periodically flooding basement. While I realize storage in a safe may be considered prudent, any assertion that it be mandatory rubs me wrong, sometimes it is impractical both by volume and structure.

Though, I will say that I do plan to at the very least invest in an 82mm ammo tin and a couple heavy locks when I begin to accrue sidearms, which are not quite so unwieldy to burglarize or desirable to criminals as a M-1891 Mosin long rifle.
 
I beleive anyone who owns firearms should be responsible with them, both from a safe-handling aspect and by storing them in a manner that will keep them from falling into the wrong hands. How could I live with myself if one of my unsecured firearms got stolen and later used to kill or injure some innocent person.

On the other hand, I strongly oppose any law that would impose mandator storage conditions. This is a matter for education, not legislation.
 
1911Tuner
However...Should the gun owner not have the wherewithal nor the structure required to support the weight of such a safe...should he forego his constitutional right to keep and bear arms...just because a thief may gain access to his home? Should it come to a choice of having a safe or giving up the guns?
Click to expand...

If nothing else, run a cable lock through the trigger guard, and around a couple of studs. Anything that keeps a casual thief or a child from gaining access is better than nothing. I do NOT support more laws to insure gun storage safety by any means.
A person that wants to exercise his Second Amendment rights, needs to be responsible as well. If that means moving to a more secure location, then so be it.
This is akin to saying that a woman should be able to walk through Central Park in a bikini at 3AM, and not fear rape. Thats correct , but don't be surprised if something untoward happens.
 
My opinion is the criminals are responsible. Not the gun owner that lost his collection. Is it wise to have a safe whenever possible? Absolutely.

However, anything above locking doors and windows is not the gun owners responsibility IMO..

That being said, souns like a little care could have saved this owner hassle and expense.


They somehow missed the .357 in his nightstand.
Click to expand...

Oh, maybe the criminals believe in the 2nd ammendment and they were making sure your friend still had arms to bear for home protection..
 
While the gun owner does have a certain responsibility to take reasonable steps to secure his weapons against unauthorized access, keeping his doors locked would seem to be a reasonable step...and I don't think that the burglary and resulting theft of his guns being viewed as "arming" the bad guys is quite a fair assessment.

He didn't willingly arm them, and seeing it that way sorta plays into the anti-gun side's agenda. They armed themselves during the commission of a felony. He's guilty of carelessness, but he isn't guilty of arming anyone. That he may possibly be held partly responsible would be a travesty of justice and a sad statement of the way that guns and gun ownership is viewed in this country.
Click to expand...

I can agree with most all of that to some point. My assertion is not that it should be mandatory or legislated as a requirement, but rather is a common sense thing that a responsible person would do as a matter of course.

My friend (and yes, he's still my friend) has the means to get a safe even without the insurance proceeds. He also lives in a home that's a very inviting target. It's an area where there are several hundred beautiful restored older homes with professional types as residents that's surrounded by blocks of ghetto.

My main problem was more with his attitude of "as long as I get my money back from insurance, i'll just buy more stuff". Chances are higher than normal that his home will be targeted again considering where he lives. [He is at least getting a security system at the urging of his wife.]

I couldn't afford a $5,000 safe myself. I improvised instead and built a safe room in a corner of the garage with cinder blocks, plate steel, reinforced concrete and a steel door made for storm shelters that has further reinforcing and good locks.

Just because there are certain responsibilities we should have as gun owners there's no need to have laws reinforcing those. (I.e.; trigger locks and built-in handgun locks.) It would seem the surest way to have laws forced on us is to ignore basic responsibilities.
 
My assertion is not that it should be mandatory or legislated as a requirement, but rather is a common sense thing that a responsible person would do as a matter of
Click to expand...

I can agree with that, too. The only problem is that...once we start to accept the notion that it's the gun owner's fault that thieves breached his inner sanctum and took his guns, and distributed them amongst others of their ilk...then we are on the road to accepting mandatory vaults...and mandatory firearm lockup separate from ammunition, and that is where the slope starts to gets greasy.

I'm not advocating careless firearm storage. I am, however, advocating placing final accountability squarely where it belongs.

He was careless. He paid the price by having his guns stolen. That's where his accountability should end.
 
From another angle...

My concern is that I would provide the means for a smash and grab burglar to become an armed aggressor in my home...

In my home there is a better chance that my wife and kids would come home and interrupt something... I don't know that I could handle their demise from one of my firearms, especially if my negligence played a key role.

There's at least an emotional responsibility for providing a means for the crime to escalate from theft to murder.

Maybe the Army drilled weapon retention into my brain too deeply... accountability and control are important even if you aren't holding your firearms.
 
I'm not advocating careless firearm storage. I am, however, advocating placing final accountability squarely where it belongs.

He was careless. He paid the price by having his guns stolen. That's where his accountability should end.
Click to expand...

Yes, the accountability for the guns being stolen is clearly upon the thieves. Further, the accountability should they be used in a crime would be on the criminal.

Responsibility and accountability though are two different things. Should we not have a responsibility (even if to no one other than ourselves) to make sensible decisions even when we're not technically accountable for what happen whenever we don't?
 
All I can really afford (In money and space) is a Stack On locking cabinet and small pistol safe. But at least I have them. I don't think they'd stop a determined burglar at all, but I do what I can. The main thing for me, is to keep my kids and their friends away from them.
 
well, i one with limited finances and a floor that cannot support the weight of a safe.

we take other measures to ensure that our firearms are not stolen. nothing is fool proof, but i think every firearm owner should put at least a little effort into it. if only because firearms are valuable possessions.
 
I must agree with 1911Tuner: "keeping his doors locked would seem to be a reasonable step..." Even though he was playing Devil's advocate, his point should be well taken. When I lock my door at night (or any other time), I say to the world, "What's behind this door is mine alone." I say that about my guns, my kitchen cutlery, and my son. While I won't disagree with those who suggest stronger precautions against theives, as long as I keep my firearms away from my inquisitive child's unsupervised eyes, I have done my part. It is my responsibility to control what those that I have invited onto my property do on my property with what I have and invite them to bring onto my property. Any other responsibility belongs to those appointed by the ones we elected to protect us from the criminal element, or to the criminals themselves. That does not mean I would feel no guilt if my shotty was stolen and put to use in a crime, only that, if it was stolen from behind my locked front door, my guilt would be undeserved.

IC
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

H
  • Locked
Traveler's Insurance....
Replies
10
Views
734
Animal Mother
A
S
  • Locked
Are your guns safe in a safe?
2 3
Replies
74
Views
5K
CB900F
C
O
  • Locked
liability insurance on guns sold? Ridiculous
Replies
3
Views
346
Jim K
J
B
  • Locked
Homeowners policy and guns
Replies
10
Views
971
Jim K
J
W
  • Locked
Long Term Storage of Rifle
Replies
5
Views
423
545days
5
Back
Top