Gun Store Employees and Unsafe Handling

[John Wayne]

I don't want this to turn into a rant, but I was in a gun store a few days ago and witnessed something that really made me uncomfortable. I am genuinely unsure of how to approach the situation, and would like feedback.

Basically, I was in a gun store that also has an indoor pistol range, and as I was walking out, happened to pass by the gun rental counter. This counter has a case of various handguns available for customers to rent. Two gentlemen were looking at various models, and a store employee was showing them the various features of each.

Because these customers were interested in a handgun for defensive reasons (I assume), the employee was explaining that in close quarters, an assailant could grab the slide of your auto pistol and render it single shot. I do not know the employee personally, but know that he is quick to recommend revolvers to anyone pretty much regardless of what they're looking for. I pointed out, in passing ( and with the intention of benefiting the prospective customer rather than to start an argument), that you could just as easily prevent the cylinder of a revolver from turning by grabbing it. Both are valid points, and I don't want to get bogged down in that issue. It's an opinion, and your view on it one way or another does not comprimise safety. It's what happened next that bothered me.

In order to illustrate his point, the clerk handed the customer a 1911 pistol from the case (action closed, safety off, hammer cocked) and instructed the customer to point it at him as he tried to grab it! :banghead: The customer did so and I heard a click and saw the hammer fall before I could even think of what to do! Then, the employee takes a S&W revolver from the case, points it at the customer while the customer grabs the cylinder of the revolver, as the employee tries to pull the trigger! (He couldn't do it without first wrestling the gun free, but that's not the point) Now, I'll give this guy the benefit of the doubt and say that he inspected the guns to ensure they were unloaded--but to me that doesn't make a damn bit of difference.

What he did violated every one of the four rules, constitutes a felony as far as I'm aware, and was, IMO, how people get killed. Now, the hard part is that I have an (expensive) membership to this range, and that this guy is of the typical "I'm the guy behind the counter so I'm right" mentality.

What should I do?

 

[Texas Gun Person]

Might just be me, but at long as the guns were safety checked before hand... I really don't have much of a problem. I stare down the barrel of a gun while cleaning them...

The only thing I don't really like is that the customer sounded new to firearms, and that sort of thing might not get the safety issue across to the customer.


Just my opinion. I'm sure someone else will disagree with me. It's also not something I would do... unless I was really bored and home alone. Just seems strange to try something like that.


Edit: This sort of thing is not something I would want to see on a normal basis when walking into a gun store, but it really does not bother me as long as the weapon has been properly checked. It's just strange business practice.

 

[wankerjake]

"It's the unloaded gun that accidently kills someone"...

If the gun was checked first to be unloaded by all participatin parties then I don't have much of a problem with it, but since it wasn't I'd feel the same way as you. I don't like guns pointed at me unless I'm the one doing it (like when cleaning) because I know it's unloaded. If you don't check then you don't know. I just don't trust anyone else.

 

[mcdonl]

We did that same "drill" in our NRA class. Granted, no ammo was even allowed in the building in those classes and it was in an educational setting but it is a good lesson to learn.

 

[Gouranga]

I do not blame you. It would really make me uncomfortable. It does not look good to customers, it does not give the right message as far as gun safety goes. I would not be outraged about it, but I would likely chat with a manager about the impressions it gives (and give them the benefit of the doubt in checking the gun first). Also, be a good opportunity to refresh their minds that they need to always check guns. Would have been a good learning opp for him to have the customer check the gun BEFORE the game to show the customer how serious it is to not be complacent on that check.

It is funny cause our CCW instructor refused to point the orange dummy gun in any unsafe direction. He said he had it so ingrained into him to "always point the gun in a safe direction" that he could not do it with a dummy gun and not feel alarms going off.

I understand the lesson he was trying to teach BUT, me personally, if I was to run a store I would keep a separate deactivated weapon for the demo and NOT use weapons regularly rented, loaded, and fired. Seems like a good way for a nasty accident to occur.

 

[rmfnla]

It's amazing what the "I work in a gun shop" mentality can do.

A few years ago I walked into a shop in Maine and a customer was pointing a rifle towards the door. I jokingly suggested he make the gun safe until I got in the store and the shopkeeper (owner?) chewed me out for suggesting there was anything wrong with pointing a gun at another person, and how they knew it was unloaded and they knew what they were doing.

I looked up at the ceiling and sure enough, there were a few holes, so I pointed up at them and said, "I'm sure all those folks had empty guns and knew what they were doing, too."

Guns don't kill people, people do; especially stupid ones!

 

[mcdonl]

It is funny cause our CCW instructor refused to point the orange dummy gun in any unsafe direction. He said he had it so ingrained into him to "always point the gun in a safe direction" that he could not do it with a dummy gun and not feel alarms going off.

Thanks for not joining us - Signed, the paintball and laser tag guild of America.

 

[duns]

I think the store employee was an idiot if he didn't at least get all present to verify to their satisfaction that the guns were unloaded before making these experiments. Even then, it's good practice not to point the gun at someone. The experiment, after checking that the guns were unloaded, could still have been done with the gun pointing in a safe direction -- just in case. There is redundancy in the four rules so that in case application of one rule fails, application of the others will prevent a tragedy.

 

[Drail]

I think this should never be done with an actual working firearm. At least several LEOs have shot and killed training partners doing this. Try to imagine how they felt. It doesn't matter if you "think" or "know" it's unloaded or even if you just checked it, don't do it. Use a prop gun.

 

[cskny]

You were right to be upset. That really was stupid.

 

[rooter]

I pointed out, in passing ( and with the intention of benefiting the prospective customer rather than to start an argument), that you could just as easily prevent the cylinder of a revolver from turning by grabbing it.

Were you asked for your opinion? Were you part of the conversation, involved in the discussion, otherwise have a horse in the race, or did you simply see fit to interject your .02?

Now, the hard part is that I have an (expensive) membership to this range, and that this guy is of the typical "I'm the guy behind the counter so I'm right" mentality.

If he is running the place, he is in charge. If you don't like his mentality, you have the option of not returning to the establishment.

What should I do?

Don't take offense, but.......For starters, don't meddle in other people's business. From what I gathered, none of this involved you and shouldn't have been of any concern to you in the first place. Nobody asked your opinion or invited you into the conversation. At the most basic level, the issue occurred because you interjected into someone's conversation.

 

[wishin]

It's not something I would do, but see nothing unsafe about what he did considering that the gun was cleared and unloaded. And, I presume the customer verified it.

I've been to a number of gun shops where when I asked to see a gun, the counter guy just handed it to me without clearing it. That to me is inexcusable.

 

[MisterMike]

It's so far beyond responsible as to be criminal. First, like the NRA instructor referred to above, it creeps me out beyond belief to think of ever pointing any weapon at anything I would not intend to shoot. But in any exchange of a firearm, both parties always verify that it's unloaded and safe--absolutely without exception.

The guy behind the counter was a moron. If he's not the owner, you need to let the owner know what you saw. If he is the owner, you need to find a new shop.

This sort of attitude is exactly what leads to accidental shootings.

 

[Phydeaux642]

Well, here's stupid in a gun shop for you. I was in my local LGS the other day that also happens to be a pawn shop. I was buying a cheap amp and as I was walking up to the counter behind the guy that was helping me, one of the guys behind the counter points some large caliber rifle at the guy's head in front of me. IF it would have been loaded and IF it had been accidently fired, then there would have most likely been two fatalities. It really made me angry and I told the guy that was helping me that if that ever happened again while I was in the store then that other guy might find himself looking down the barrel of my 642. DON'T POINT GUNS AT ME, KNUCKLEHEAD.:banghead::banghead:

 

[Oscar 14]

Well I was going to say how I thought it was so wrong in so many ways and incredibly moronic, but I'm going to take Rooter's advice and mind my own business. Because we sure don't want to get "involved" in a firearms safety issue do we.

 

[Hatterasguy]

Yeah that was pretty dumb, pointing guns at eachother wasn't smart. Looks like they were going for the Darwin award.

I yell at anyone who points a gun at me or handles a firearm poorly. I don't want to get shot, or have to deal with someone getting shot in front of me. All it takes is one mistake to change your life forever.

 

[Bhamrichard]

It really wouldn't matter to me if he was the owner, an NRA instructor, or personally held in the hand of God during this display. It was Absolutely Stupid to point a firearm at someone else, for a variety of reasons.

If both parties, have a clue to begin with, and have both inspected the firearm, I'd probably bite my lip and walk out, BUT. At least one person in this little display, was obviously oblivious to proper handgun handling, and this experience only serves to show him, that it's fine to point a weapon at someone else.

It's a matter of personal ethics I suppose, I would not sit there and keep my mouth shut. If I'm butting in, fine, so be it, maybe someone won't have a hole blown through them at least in my presence. If I offend someone, tough, maybe I can at least plant a seed in their pin-head little brains that that particular act, was moronic at best.

With regard to the advice given earlier about "minding your own business"... If someone get's their head blown off in front of me, now I'm a witness to a gruesome and idiotic negligent discharge, possibly in the line of fire/ricochet, and possibly mentally messed up for a long time to come. Safety and proper handling is every ones concern. I can see a situation where this might be a valid training exercise and in some training classes, but in a gun store and particularly with someone that knows nothing of gun safety (the potential customer), nope, not the right place.

 

[mcdonl]

First, like the NRA instructor referred to above, it creeps me out beyond belief to think of ever pointing any weapon at anything I would not intend to shoot.

So, it is not common in the NRA Self Defense in the home class for the instructor to demonstrate this drill with the students? I found it fascinating, and I have tried to pull the trigger on a revolver with someone holding the cylinder and the other way around. Same drill with the 1911 and I tell you what, if I ever have the unfortunate experience of someone poking a gun in my chest I now have another tool in my tool box I can use.

Sometimes you have to think and act outside of the box in order to learn something. I understand the safe rules of handling a gun, and what the guy did in the store, without proper training and explanation was wrong but I think to call yourself a professional and not even have the ability to use a dummy orange gun for what it is intended is just as inexcusable.

 

[Win1892]

To friends developing an interest in self defense firearms I have shown a Model 60 with a boot grip versus a Model 60 with a full sized soft rubber grip. I also used an attempt to "wrestle" each gun away from the person holding the gun to demonstrate the advantage of a firm grasp of a larger grip versus the slippery grip of the weapon from the business end.

I clear the cylinder, dry fire the gun about 10 times, open the cylinder and hand it to my "student" to check. Upon receiving the weapon back, I duplicate the clearing exercise again. I then proceed with the demonstration.

Anal? Probably. Weapon safe? Absolutely.

 

[nlax2011]

In the CCW course I took we went over some basic grips and retention skills 1 on 1 with the instructor and I guess there might be the OCCASIONAL need to test a skill using a real, unloaded firearm.....? but for most purposes I think a dummy gun should be used and that's what we used in class.

Still I'm not going to do this, I don't ever see a need to use a real firearm in demonstrating a skill that involves one pointing a gun at someone, and I wouldn't want anyone else doing it to me.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Because these customers were interested in a handgun for defensive reasons (I assume), the employee was explaining that in close quarters, an assailant could grab the slide of your auto pistol and render it single shot. I do not know the employee personally, but know that he is quick to recommend revolvers to anyone pretty much regardless of what they're looking for.

An assailant can get his hand(s) around the cylinder of a revolver, stop it from turning and render it a zero-shot. He should be pointing out all the advantages or disadvantages of one type of handgun or another and not use a single criteria.

 

[John Wayne]

Were you asked for your opinion? Were you part of the conversation, involved in the discussion, otherwise have a horse in the race, or did you simply see fit to interject your .02?

I brought up a point I thought the customer might like to know. I go there a lot, and have offered my opinion before, when I thought it would help, and the staff usually seems to appreciate it. Bringing up a point they may not have considered leads to a customer being satisfied in their purchase. I do not bring up things to start arguments. If I were seeking information about a product I was unfamiliar with, I would appreciate any information someone had to offer.

If he is running the place, he is in charge. If you don't like his mentality, you have the option of not returning to the establishment.

He's an employee, not an employer: ergo, he is not "running the place."

Don't take offense, but.......For starters, don't meddle in other people's business. From what I gathered, none of this involved you and shouldn't have been of any concern to you in the first place. Nobody asked your opinion or invited you into the conversation. At the most basic level, the issue occurred because you interjected into someone's conversation.

I have a pretty good feeling he was going to show the guy the example with the 1911 regardless of whether or not I said anything. Seeing as how he's not bulletproof and I was about to walk by, it does affect me. Also, since the customer might buy a gun and carry over unsafe handling practices to the range, it can also potentially affect me.

Lone Haranguer, that was my point exactly, and the reason I said something. I guess it can be argued that the revolver would be a single shot if the hammer were already cocked...but I started this thread because of the safety violation that followed the discussion about the merits of each type of handgun.

 

[mcdonl]

nlax

but for most purposes I think a dummy gun should be used and that's what we used in class.

I see your point, but did you get a feel for how hard you have to hold the cylinder or how hard you have to hold the slide? Or how hard it was to pull the trigger. I feared breaking the instructors revolver which happened to be his BUG I had to pull the trigger so hard (he was local PD) It matters in this drill, it is EVERYTHING in this drill. Doing it with dummy guns will show the general idea, but adults in a professional, educational setting should have the ability to work with real guns.

What the OP saw, well... that's a different matter. The NRA instructors in the class room set the scene, describe what is going to happen to the class and as stated, verify that all weapons are unloaded. As a matter of fact, they do this for all guns that are handled by asking a student and another instructor to verify. The entire class was mature and confident enough to do this drill and not fear it bleeding over and corrupting our knowledge of gun safety. We had the mental capacity to absorb the lesson in the skill and still realize that once we learned that drill that we put it on our tool box and not show it to our buddy with a loaded gun.

 

[duns]

I think it was completely wrong for employees and customers to be dry firing at each other in a store. Other customers have no way of knowing whether the necessary safety precautions were taken. There is also the very strong argument that you don't dry fire at another person no matter what precautions you have taken -- just in case.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Over the counters always tick me off. I would have fired him on the spot.
There is never a reason to discuss with a gun in that manner.