Gun Tests gets irritable re: Smith and Taurus Ti/Sc big bore CCW guns

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P. Plainsman

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The new Feb 2005 Gun Tests contains an evaluation of three new wonder-metal carry snubs: the S&W 325PD (N-frame moonclipped six-shot .45 ACP), S&W 327 (very snubby, N-frame eight-shot .357) and Taurus 415 (Tracker-frame five-shot .41 Magnum).

Gun Tests basically disliked the whole concept. They found all three guns displayed unacceptable recoil (though cf. below). They concluded, paraphrasing slightly from memory, that "all of these guns have problems that would keep us from recommending them." Each received only a "Conditional Buy" rating.

The 325PD got the most positive remarks: "made the most sense" to them as a CCW. Frankly, after reading the review, I found it hard to see why they didn't give it their "Buy It" rating. They said the 325 felt well-balanced and seemed smaller than it was. It displayed unacceptable recoil with "hot defense loads." OK, but there's life beyond Cor-Bon, and plain old 230 gr isn't bad medicine. One seemingly well-taken, if minor, beef was that the 325 came with half-moon clips for ammo. That does seem pointless; why not full moon clips on a "business" gun? Gun Tests noted that one could easily buy full-moons, and that with them the gun gave very fast reloads. This sounds like a good piece.

The funny-looking 327 received sharp criticism. Velocities were very low out of the tiny barrel, yet recoil was (in Gun Tests' view) unacceptably harsh. Eight rounds of .357 is a definite perk, but if the gun limits the rounds to 9mm ballistic performance, then why not just get a Kahr K9 or P9? The 327 lacks adjustable sights. It lists at over $1100; street price is about $830! Sometimes I wonder if S&W is losing the plot.

The Taurus 415 titanium snubby was described as a compact, well-made gun (I think it's quite handsome), but its recoil was unacceptable to Gun Tests. The gun "sorely tested our limits," in their words. It appears to have kicked the worst of the three. They also expressed concern about the availability of factory defense ammo. They singled out Winchester Silvertip .41 Mag as the only controllable factory load available to them; said that's what they'd carry. I bet the stainless model (30 oz) is nice.

Gun Tests is an odd mag. It is an idiosyncratic mix of useful straight talk and sometimes arbitrary judgments. As I said, it was hard for me to see why they didn't at least give the 325PD a "Buy It" rating, given their remarks about it. I take their conclusions with a grain of salt -- doubly so since they tend to confirm my own prejudices against these titanium/scandium guns. But all info is of value, so there you go.
 
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Stopped taking GT quite some time ago ... and their R9 evaluation last year pretty much capped any chance I'd renew afresh!

It is rare indeed I buy a new gun - like a ''this year's model'' ... exception I guess was my new SIG.

I have little use for reports on new stuff for most part. Get better feedback from guys who I shoot with and have tried something new - maybe even try for self.
 
Ahhh Gun Test Magazine.
Gotta love 'em!!!
I canceled my subscription years ago after the Makarov debacle.
It seems to me that nothing has changed with these goofs!!
I'm not really into uber light, high power revolvers. My Aluminum frame Taurus does quite well at 17oz.
However, there are those among us that do crave the super low weight and presumably, the added recoil. I see no need for GTM to slag three perfectly good guns just because they are all aimed at the masochistic niche gun buyer!! :scrutiny:
 
Too bad they did not test the M625-10, the version with the alloy frame, stainless cylinder, fixed sights, and two-inch barrel. I really like mine since it is a heck of a lot easier to carry than my old three-inch M625 with its adjustable sights. Recoil is not too bad with 230-grain standard velocity hollowpoints. With RIMZ moon clips and a Sparks VM-2, it is a good CCW revolver.
 
I gave up on Guntest after they recomended a pistol after they had to send the original back and the loaded chamber indicator flew off of the second one. I've been looking at that Taurus 415. Not sure if I'd carry it, but it has to be alot of fun to play with.
 
I'm giving up GT when my sub runs out in May. It's been years that I've been taking the magazine, and I've just about had it. There's so much better info available online - the GT crew doesn't ever really seem to learn from their mistakes (remember when their scale was set wrong for over a year, resulting in KT P32s being reported as c. 14 ounces? :rolleyes: Or how about when they didn't shoot the Hi-Power because some nincompoop put the recoil spring rod in upside-down :rolleyes: and THEN they had the gall to suggest it came that way from the factory? Argh.) over time.

Before you buy a 415Ti, run a search on "415Ti" here. I had one (bought it brand new for $299, if you can believe that) - it was feisty enough that I sold it (for $300). I just was not able to control it to where I felt my follow-up shots were fast enough.
 
Good ole Gun Test Magazine. The same one that says let us send you a free copy and if you don't like it just write cancel on the bill. So you do that and cancel yet they keep coming. Then they try to threaten you for payment. :cuss:

So a lightweight snub kicks like hell! Shocking News! Who wudda thought that?
 
Yup. They also make all their judgements based on a sample of 1 gun. In other words all their conclusions are statistically worthless. My brother bought it for a while, but I certainly would never pay money for it. I use the 'net for product reviews instead.
 
The package I settled on for a lightweight carry revo was the Taurus 455 Ti in .45 ACP +P. My only complaint at this point is that every round I try in it gets enough bullet pull that removing spent cases is nearly impossible unless you shoot all five rounds. It's reasonably controllable, makes big holes, and reloads OK, but not as good as my S&W 646 with it's thicker moon clips.

The concepts are OK, but of those the 325 would seem to be the best blend, although I went with the thinner Taurus for extra comfort and fixed sights at the sacrifice of a round.
 
Dear Gun Tests Magazine:

"We tested Gun Tests Magazine a few years back, and our return encounter with this publication leaves us feeling like nothing has changed since our last disappointing visit.
We think this magazine and its Editors are basically a bunch of opinionated boobs and give it a 'Conditional Buy' rating.
We'll hold off renewing our subscription until a few of the bugs are worked out.
In the meantime, we'll spend our hard earned money elsewhere."
:neener: :evil: :D
 
The GT guys are like most non revolver folks. They don't get why we like snubbies. ESPECIALLY big bore snubbies.

It was never about practicality :neener:
 
Interesting the contrasts.

I have both the 325 & the 327, here are my thoughts.

I've had the 325 longer, and right away, I could tell that this gun was a handful. The recoil is sharp so that you can make one or 2 shots no problem if you're recoil intolerant, but a cylinder full can be trying. After several moon clips, it hurts. I concur with their rating of the trigger, the DA is very "taurus-like" in that it's heavy, but IMO smoother than most Taurii. I can get acceptable groups both DA/SA at 7 yards, off hand which is what this gun is for (IMO). Right away, I called S&W about the trigger pull, and my intent is to send it in for an action job from their PC.

One note that GT didn't harp on enough. The straight walled .45 + 20.5 oz. revolver WILL cause some ammo to back out before the whole cylinder is shot! I've had this happen on CCI Blazer brass, and one other brand of commercial, the brand escapes me now. I typically shoot reloads which have not been succeptible to this. Moonclips for this gun are cheap.

The 327 has a different front / rear site configuration. The 327 comes with wood finger groove grips. I honestly expected this gun to be punishing, but I think the recoil signature is far less than the .45. I can unload 2 full cylinders of powerful .357 magnums before having the same effect as about 1.5 cylinders of the 325... (16 shots vs. 9). I think the finger grooves go a long way toward keeping this gun from jumping around so much in your hands. This gun has a very good trigger on it too, and it's accurate for a 2" barrel.
Moon clips for this gun are not cheap, nor are they as effective as they are for the .45. They're still better than nothing. Another bug - NO speed loaders (except the maxfire) for this design. I have not experienced any of the extraction problems with this gun that GT did. I suspect they may be trying to simply push out the cases with the ejector, rather than sharply shoving them out with the ejector. I concur that the moon clips do make extraction easier.

I don't find the recoil bad on either of these guns, but I think the 325 is by far 'worse' than the 327, even with my maximum strength ( straight of Hogdon's website ) load 125 grain loads. When I bought the 627, I got a spare grip like the one on the 327. Since the 325 was the sharper recoil, I put a S&W/Hogue rubber grip on it 1st, and that helped a lot, but obviously doesn't conceal as well. I've mounted the wood fingergroove grips on the 325 now to see if it is any better than the stock smooth grips...
 
All I'm going to say is that every single one of our customers that just had to have a .357 magnum Scandium snub, to a person, now shoots them with .38 special non plus p ammunition.
They almost all claim that they just wanted the option of being able to use .357s in an emergency.
Yeah, right.
 
I shot a scandium 357 once, and only once. I carry a 357 snubby and run at least 50 rds thru it every week. My favorite pistol is my 444 Marlin Contender. But those lightweight 357's are just crazy. Fun to play with at the range I suppose, but if I had to use one in a SD situation I'd hesitate wondering if I'd rather just let the BG shot me.
 
:neener:

I'm not talking about a 340 or 360 here at only 12 ounces, with the mini grip.

The 327 is an N frame, with a full size grip on it. Since the recoil is distributed more evenly, it's not anywhere near as punishing. And yes, I've shot the 340PD, and it was indeed a handful, but it wasn't as bad as it's been made out here. We're not talking apocolyptic levels of recoil here...
 
"Gun Tests" is a good idea but carried out poorly. I have read them in the past and once I had to go through the hassles of trying to cancel my subscription after the free copy like another poster already mentioned. They really are a bunch of goofs.
 
Over the years GT has been around, their tests overall, have been much closer to reality and their reporting of the test results more honest than any other source I have seen. Yes, there are times when I disagree with their reasoning, but at least they present their findings for all to see and then explain how they arrive at a particular conclusion.

The major gun writers, on the other hand, using mainstream gun mags as their vehicle, very rarely say anything negative about the weapons they test. When they do they almost always pass it off by coming to the weapon maker's defense. No doubt about it, advertising dollars do have an effect on the outcome!

How many times has someone on a gun forum called their gun a "POS" and stated why? Then, several days or weeks later made statements like "I was just testing those reloads I picked up at the local gun show" or something else just as illconsidered. Yes, it happens often.

There have been several instances in the past where I wish I had waited for GT's evaulation before I bought, as they were right on the money with their comments.
:( In both cases the guns got a glowing review in the mainstream gun mags! :(


:evil:
 
Tough to rate some guns...

When you only have 1 example, it's not always reflective of reality...

<preach>
In the motorcycle world, there's a well known, but very, very, very taboo subject of "magazine horsepower" vs. what the customer gets. My totally un-stock zx11 puts out 160+ hp at the rear wheel, and it took a LOT to get it there. You wouldn't think it would since the "magazine numbers" show stock hp of 130 - 132, but the reality is that the highest stock numbers my shop EVER saw was 125, with most 118-121. Why?

Because when the moto companies submit a bike for testing, they submit a "super sport" example; one in which all engine parts are carefully selected to be within the most exacting tolerances, they are hand assembled, with each and every part being the lightest, least resistant bearings, etc. It adds up, super sport bikes are worth about 10 hp over what all of us can buy. The magazines thrash them, rave about how they are the greatest model since sliced bread, and you and I go out (ok, at least I do) and buy them.

Honda, Suzuki, Kaw, Buell, Triumph, Aprilia, HD - all do this. The magazines feign ignorance but... they procure their bikes from a moto test pool, NOT a dealer... The only motorcycle mag to test closer to stock bikes is Motorcycle consumer news, and coincidentally, their HP, top speed, etc are much lower. Are they closer to reality? Probably. Caveat Emptor.
</preach>

GT uses a statistically irrelevant number of examples to perform their tests. Not only that, I've bought 2 guns that GT either recommended or 'picked' and both were dogs. Further, over the years, GT has tested several models of guns I own. A couple were close, but some were ... well... way off. I think the absolute worst example was their review of the S&W 627 vs. the Taurus??? They hated the 627, really panning the trigger...
<rampant biased opinion>
My 627 is probably single handedly responsible making me really appreciate the revolver for what it *should* be. IMO, it's the best, period.
</rampant biased opinion>

One would think you would stand a better chance of finding a 'dog' in the type of sampling GT uses, but that hasn't been my observation... and I'm not sure why...
 
"The same one that says let us send you a free copy and if you don't like it just write cancel on the bill. So you do that and cancel yet they keep coming"

Funny, that happened to me. Signed up online, sent email to cancel but they still kept coming... :fire:
One of the problems with GT is that if they get a lemon, that's it - You'll get to read the review of a lemon. :barf:
 
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