Gun that Oswald used.

[Traffer]

I remember when JFK was assassinated. I watched Jack Ruby shoot Lee Harvey Oswald on live TV. Will never forget that. Back then a friend of mine collected military surplus rifles. I remember reading ads for them in (I believe Herters Catalog). Many rifles were in the $10 to $15 range. I believe that included M98 Mausers, 303 Enfields, 7.7 Arisakas, Italian Carcano's etc. As I recall American rifies were a little more expensive, In the $20 to $35 range. You could order one from a catalog and the mailman would bring it to your door. That's it. Nothing more. Back then you could buy guns in gas stations, auto parts stores, general stores, etc. I remember reading the ad for the Carcano in Herters Catalog maybe a year before JFK was shot. Herters described it as "the gun that lost the war for Italy". They made no bones that it was a piece of junk. This friend of mine had one. I recall that it seemed like a "nice little carbine" but very crudely made. My question is this, "why would someone buy arguably the worst gun on the market for such a purpose. Especially if you could get many other models for the same price. To me it just doesn't make sense that Oswald used a Carcano. Am I missing something?
Edited: OK I just read this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/cold-case-jfk.html
It still seems strange to chose the Carcano.

 

[Tommygunn]

The gun Oswald used was made for military use, not for some wealthy baron to hunt fox with. Those guns were made to drag through mud and still work.
Oswalds Mannlicher Carcano was not pretty......but it worked like it's makers intended.
Also, consider Oswald was lower class----by which I mean poor. He penny pinched on everything. He was never going to buy an expensive rifle.

 

[M-Cameron]

assassinations arent like they are in the movies....where you have a highly trained operative with specialty equipment planning for months....

more often than not, its some regular joe performing the attack with little to no planning, using what they have on hand.....

at the end of the day, he accomplished his goal with his weapon....putting a better weapon in his hands wouldnt have changed the outcome any...so the fact that it was regarded as a rubbish rifle is irrelevant.

 

[Kleanbore]

The Carcano was not a "piece of junk".

For someone with limited disposable cash, it represented a pretty good value at the time.

The ammunition that Oswald had was pretty questionable, but it worked.

 

[Traffer]

The gun Oswald used was made for military use, not for some wealthy baron to hunt fox with. Those guns were made to drag through mud and still work.
Oswalds Mannlicher Carcano was not pretty......but it worked like it's makers intended.
Also, consider Oswald was lower class----by which I mean poor. He penny pinched on everything. He was never going to buy an expensive rifle.

I read the transcript about the case from the link I posted. I don't want to belabor this anymore but what I am saying is that he could have gotten at least 5 different military surplus rifles for the same price that were considered better. Both in manufacture and ballistics. But after reading that link, I just want to drop the subject. Brings back too many sad memories.

 

[WardenWolf]

The Carcano isn't junk. It may not be as well-designed or as powerful as other nations' rifles, but it was accurate and soft-shooting, both good characteristics for someone trying to shoot fast.

That said, could he have done better? Certainly. But it got the job done. When you're doing headshots, it's pretty much a guaranteed kill with anything larger than a .22LR.

 

[ilbob]

$10 in 1961 is about $80 today.

 

[Red Wind]

That's correct. You have to multiply 1963 dollars by 8 to get today's cost in dollars.

And LHO was certainly a penny pincher his entire short life. But as was said, the Carcano got the job done for the ex Marine sharpshooter.

 

[jmr40]

he could have gotten at least 5 different military surplus rifles for the same price that were considered better. Both in manufacture and ballistics.

Things are no different today. I'm on this and several gun related forums most days. I see people who are in love with many guns where better options are available for about the same money every day. I guess it is just personal preference or possibly the fact that he was more familiar with that rifle than the other options.

 

[lysanderxiii]

The particular vendor that was selling those Carcanos was selling them with the scope attached, for the price it was a deal....

 

[tark]

Look Familiar? From a Rifleman magazine, 1966. No Carcanos visible, but you get the Idea. Ahhhh...... the good old days...

My kingdom for a time machine.....

 

[Midwest]

Kind of on topic...

Oswald also killed Dallas policeman J.D Tippit with a .38 revolver. Where did Oswald buy THAT gun from and what brand was it?

And what about the gun that Ruby used to kill Oswald.

What brand was it?

And did they ever find out where Jack Ruby bought it for and for how much?
.

 

[Jim Watson]

As I recall, Oswald's .38 was one of those reamed out, maybe sawn off, British surplus S&W .38/200s.

I think Jack Ruby's gun was a Colt snubby, a Detective Special or Cobra.
Where he bought it and for how much was not something regularly recorded in those days.

 

[desidog]

I'm a big Carcano fan; i have five. While they certainly have a bad wrap, they are good guns, IMHO. Certainly better in fit and finish than most 91/30's i've seen, and of course the last ditch Arisakas as well.

I think there is a disconnect in the market with perception because I've seen really beaten Mosins going for higher prices than good condition Carcanos lately. I think the most i paid for one was 150 (for a pristine 1891 moschetto with early lever latch bayonet).

Carcanos were made in a number of factories, with a number of variations. They were also field modified by troops (known as Troop Specials). An important detail is that they have gain twist rifling; and hacking a foot off the barrel might not improve performance.

The turn out from some, like the Gardone VT factory (home to Beretta), made very nice rifles before the war. Of course, during wartime, quality suffers. Some of the examples i've seen from Brescia have been nice too, while the ones i've seen from Terni had looser tolerances. YMMV.

Also, the 6.5 Carcano is no round to slouch at. Sure, there are a lot of others out there that do a bit better on paper, but if you want to interview the deer that i've shot with this round, you can not. They are dead and eaten.

Back then they generally stored surplus rifles in a big barrel, and the buyer could take his pick of the litter. He probably went through the bin and found a rifle with a scope and the slickest action, which on that particular day was the now infamous Carcano.

 

[Red Wind]

Ruby's .38 was a Colt Cobra. Oswald's was a S&W. Here is an interesting article about its purchase by LHO.

Despite considerable evidence to the contrary, some critics have questioned whether Lee Harvey Oswald really owned the revolver used to shoot Officer J.D. Tippit. Recently, allegations have been made based on a 1974 unpublished manuscript by Fred T. Newcomb and Perry Adams titled, Murder From Within.

Where Oswald got the Carcano.

Now, given the overwhelming evidence in this case that proves Lee Oswald definitely did order the rifle that ultimately ended up being the weapon that killed John F. Kennedy, the above theory/myth is totally preposterous and should be downright embarrassing to any conspiracy theorist who suggests such a thing.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Look Familiar? From a Rifleman magazine, 1966. No Carcanos visible, but you get the Idea. Ahhhh...... the good old days...

My kingdom for a time machine.....

$19.95 with scope....(about $150 today), throw in another $7.50 and you get 108 rounds of ball....



$90 for an M1, which is about what the Government paid for them...

 

[redneck2]

Well, before everybody wets themselves over those prices, I remember those days well. We were bailing hay for 50 to 75 cents an hour. These were 80# bales, during 90 degree+ heat. Stacked in barns that had to be 120+. Work all friggin' day and get a $5 bill.

Regular jobs like retail would pay maybe $1,800-$2,500 a year.

Mosins and SKS's are (or were) the same thing. Back when the SKS was common, I bought a NIB Russian for $119 OTD.

I had a Three Dog Night album from the 60's. Someone in the crowd yelled "I can't hear you....turn it up!" Singer replies "you should have bought the five fifty tickets. Not $550. $5.50. Front row.

So before you hop on the time machine, just remember that most of your Lilly butts wouldn't survive those days. No A/C. No internet, Facebook. Bullying at school meant you got your butt kicked. Cars had no A/C, no power windows. No FM. No tape players. TV was a huge box in the living room that got three or four channels. And you had get up to crank the channel knob and adjust the rabbit ears between every station.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Kind of on topic...

Oswald also killed Dallas policeman J.D Tippit with a .38 revolver. Where did Oswald buy THAT gun from and what brand was it?

And what about the gun that Ruby used to kill Oswald.

What brand was it?

And did they ever find out where Jack Ruby bought it for and for how much?
.

Ruby's pistol was a Colt Cobra in .38 Special, they cost $45.00




Oswald's .38 was a Smith & Wesson .38 special two-inch Commando model revolver and cost $29.95 at the time. He is seen with it in the famous "backyard photos"

 

[lysanderxiii]

Well, before everybody wets themselves over those prices, I remember those days well. We were bailing hay for 50 to 75 cents an hour. These were 80# bales, during 90 degree+ heat. Stacked in barns that had to be 120+. Work all friggin' day and get a $5 bill.

Regular jobs like retail would pay maybe $1,800-$2,500 a year.

Mosins and SKS's are (or were) the same thing. Back when the SKS was common, I bought a NIB Russian for $119 OTD.

I had a Three Dog Night album from the 60's. Someone in the crowd yelled "I can't hear you....turn it up!" Singer replies "you should have bought the five fifty tickets. Not $550. $5.50. Front row.

So before you hop on the time machine, just remember that most of your Lilly butts wouldn't survive those days. No A/C. No internet, Facebook. Bullying at school meant you got your butt kicked. Cars had no A/C, no power windows. No FM. No tape players. TV was a huge box in the living room that got three or four channels. And you had get up to crank the channel knob and adjust the rabbit ears between every station.

Even accounting for the devaluation of the dollar since then, in 2016 dollars:

the Carcano is $150
the M1 in $700
the M1917 rifle with a scope is $230
the Carbine is $600
the Enfield pistol is $100
the M1917 pistol is $225
and
the M1903 is a whopping $300

Still enough to make me wish for those days....

 

[Carl N. Brown]

The Carcano had been around since 1891. The Russians were ruthless about trashing Mosin rifles that did not meet specification. The Italian military would keep equipment in service until it could no longer be jury-rigged to keep working.

Yes many Italian rifles were rubbish.

Oswald's rifle was an Italian Carcano, Series 1891, Model 1938, made at Terni arsenal in 1940 when Terni arsenal was under supervision of Beretta. It was not a junker.

Ammo for the Carcano was always a problem. The Italian military would recover unused ammo, repackage in mixed lots from different factories, and re-issue. It is no joke that a six shot clip issued to an Italian soldier could be mixed ammo. Surplus ammo was suspect. I remember when the only reliable 6.5 Ital ammo available was by Norma of Sweden, commercial hunting ammo, and one box cost as much as the rifle which made the rifle not a bargain. In the 1960s there were ammo reasons to avoid the Carcano rifle. Usually pacakaging on the mail order military surplus market was 108 rounds (enough for 18 six shot clips).

Oswald's ammunition was surplus from a post WWII production run for the Greek government by Western Cartridge Company. The Greek gov't had received Carcano rifles as war reparations (Greece struggled to rebuild their army after Axis occupation) and the US Military, WCC and the NRA developed load data to best utilize the Greek-issued Carcanos. The ammo was recent manufacture and highly serviceable.

(The brass en-bloc clip was made by SMI in 1952.)

 

[Carl N. Brown]

"My kingdom for a time machine...."

That was the premise of Stephen King's novel 11.22.63 -- cheap hamburger.

 

[stonecutter2]

As I recall, Oswald's .38 was one of those reamed out, maybe sawn off, British surplus S&W .38/200s.

I think Jack Ruby's gun was a Colt snubby, a Detective Special or Cobra.
Where he bought it and for how much was not something regularly recorded in those days.

Oswald's .38 was a S&W Victory model.

 

[WardenWolf]

The Carcano had been around since 1891. The Russians were ruthless about trashing Mosin rifles that did not meet specification. The Italian military would keep equipment in service until it could no longer be jury-rigged to keep working.

Yes many Italian rifles were rubbish.

Oswald's rifle was an Italian Carcano, Series 1891, Model 1938, made at Terni arsenal in 1940 when Terni arsenal was under supervision of Beretta. It was not a junker.

Ammo for the Carcano was always a problem. The Italian military would recover unused ammo, repackage in mixed lots from different factories, and re-issue. It is no joke that a six shot clip issued to an Italian soldier could be mixed ammo. Surplus ammo was suspect. I remember when the only reliable 6.5 Ital ammo available was by Norma of Sweden, commercial hunting ammo, and one box cost as much as the rifle which made the rifle not a bargain. In the 1960s there were ammo reasons to avoid the Carcano rifle. Usually pacakaging on the mail order military surplus market was 108 rounds (enough for 18 six shot clips).

Oswald's ammunition was surplus from a post WWII production run for the Greek government by Western Cartridge Company. The Greek gov't had received Carcano rifles as war reparations (Greece struggled to rebuild their army after Axis occupation) and the US Military, WCC and the NRA developed load data to best utilize the Greek-issued Carcanos. The ammo was recent manufacture and highly serviceable.

(The brass en-bloc clip was made by SMI in 1952.)

Very informative. Thank you. So he had a good rifle, with good ammunition. Overall, it was actually a very good choice. Accurate and low recoil.

As for the S&W Victories in .38/200 (the British version of .38 S&W), I've heard that, as long as the chamber reaming to .38 Special was done correctly, they were still decently accurate and the only problem they really exhibited was bulged brass which made extraction difficult.

 

[stonecutter2]

My question is this, "why would someone buy arguably the worst gun on the market for such a purpose. Especially if you could get many other models for the same price. To me it just doesn't make sense that Oswald used a Carcano. Am I missing something?
Edited: OK I just read this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/cold-case-jfk.html
It still seems strange to chose the Carcano.

It was a carbine rifle, which meant easier transportation without it screaming "rifle." Oswald took a bus to shoot at General Walker, and later got a ride to work on the day he shot Kennedy. Wrapping it up made it look like some parcel, not overly long and suspicious. I'm guessing size alone was a big consideration for him.

I think Oswald got the revolver first to test the waters on the mail order process.

He later got the rifle explicitly to try to take a shot at General Walker. He ordered the revolver on 1/27/63. He reportedly did some surveillance of Walker's house on 3/9-3/10/63 according to the Warren Commission. Then he ordered the rifle on 3/12/63. Walker was shot 4/10/63.

When the window frame messed up his shot, he probably felt it cheated him from his glorious moment to oust an anti-communist government guy.

I really think 11/22/63 was a spur of the moment decision based on proximity of the parade route. Just a bad twist of fate for Kennedy.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

It was an S&W Victory model, originally chambered .38 S&W for British issue.

The importer had the chambers reamed out to .38 Spl and had the barrel chopped losing the front lug (instead of the cylinder pin locking front and rear as std S&W practice, the cylinder pin was only locked at the rear). The importer felt a 2" snub .38 Spl had more sales appeal than a 4" .38 S&W.