Gun that Oswald used.
- Thread starter Traffer
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Bobson
Member
What really doesn't make sense is how this thread is still alive lol
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Why?
To a nut-job racist, or anyone else?
A cheap 30-06 pump-action deer rifle across the street is as good as anything, and better then most $mega-buck sniper rifles with mil-dot scopes you can't lift!
rc
Deaf Smith
Member
Folks, most of these assassinations were carried out at 100 to 200 yards.
They did not need, nor require, a 'sniper rifle'. Any old 30/30 lever action would do (unlike Jason Borne.)
Deaf
They did not need, nor require, a 'sniper rifle'. Any old 30/30 lever action would do (unlike Jason Borne.)
Deaf
WardenWolf
member
Actually, someone ran some tests a few years ago. They found that a skilled lefty, shooting from a window rest like Oswald was, could actually work the Carcano bolt faster than a right hander. It was perfectly plausible.
MikeJackmin
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I've seen some interesting speculation that Oswald's gun might have been something quite usual.
I don't have the original source at hand and I am relying on memory here, but the story goes that Mussolini had an honor guard, soldiers who were intended to serve as his personal security force. These men were armed with Carcanos fitted with black wooden stocks. Oswald's gun appears to be one of those rifles. I think only a couple have survived.
It's hard to find a good color photo of the Oswald gun but it does appear to have a black stock.
This information came from the one good book on Carcano collecting that was available years ago. I considered the book to the pretty good and the story was fairly convincing.
Edit: There's a long thread here which suggests the stock is brown after all:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...ald-s-Carcano-use-the-quot-Kennedy-rifle-quot
I don't have the original source at hand and I am relying on memory here, but the story goes that Mussolini had an honor guard, soldiers who were intended to serve as his personal security force. These men were armed with Carcanos fitted with black wooden stocks. Oswald's gun appears to be one of those rifles. I think only a couple have survived.
It's hard to find a good color photo of the Oswald gun but it does appear to have a black stock.
This information came from the one good book on Carcano collecting that was available years ago. I considered the book to the pretty good and the story was fairly convincing.
Edit: There's a long thread here which suggests the stock is brown after all:
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...ald-s-Carcano-use-the-quot-Kennedy-rifle-quot
kBob
Member
I was once invited to see the rifle at FBI HQ in DC where it was at that time. Unfortunately things came up. On both ends actually.
Dr. Fackler had a file of stuff he put together on the shooting. Among other things they shot a gel filled human skull to demonstrate that considerable "material" would be ejected towards the shooter from such a head shot. He also computed the likely velocity of the bullet that finally struck the Gov.'s wrist and loaded a 6.5 down to that velocity and shot a cadaver wrist, as it did so, and produced the same sort of flattening as on the recovered bullet on the test bullet. He was pretty convinced that there was a single shooter.
I believe that, just as Mr. Davis, that Col. Brown had a re enactment at a Soldier of Fortune convention and had multiple folks actually out shoot Oswald.
-kBob
Dr. Fackler had a file of stuff he put together on the shooting. Among other things they shot a gel filled human skull to demonstrate that considerable "material" would be ejected towards the shooter from such a head shot. He also computed the likely velocity of the bullet that finally struck the Gov.'s wrist and loaded a 6.5 down to that velocity and shot a cadaver wrist, as it did so, and produced the same sort of flattening as on the recovered bullet on the test bullet. He was pretty convinced that there was a single shooter.
I believe that, just as Mr. Davis, that Col. Brown had a re enactment at a Soldier of Fortune convention and had multiple folks actually out shoot Oswald.
-kBob
amd6547
Member
I used find the choice of a carcano implausible...until I bought a short, cavalry carcano carbine.
I found it to be one of the slickest bolt actions ever. Very smooth feeding with the enbloc clip.
In fact, it's a very handy gun in a very useful caliber.
I found it to be one of the slickest bolt actions ever. Very smooth feeding with the enbloc clip.
In fact, it's a very handy gun in a very useful caliber.
Red Wind
Member
The Carcano is no slouch and neither was LHO as a shooter. In the USMC he was about average, but compared to the average civilian he was certainly several steps above.
Both of my much older USMC brothers shot expert, and though being decent, I could never come close to their accuracy on the range or hunting trips.
Sharpshooter in the US Army would probably be Marksman in the Corps. I have to admit that!
Both of my much older USMC brothers shot expert, and though being decent, I could never come close to their accuracy on the range or hunting trips.
Sharpshooter in the US Army would probably be Marksman in the Corps. I have to admit that!
Carl N. Brown
Member
"I think that Oswald, a lefty, shot that right handed gun left handed, working the bolt with his right hand and easily took three shots in the five or so seconds...."
Isn't there a SWAT team that trains shooting left handed, operating the bolt with the right?
Five or so seconds is based on the Warren Commission worst timing case scenario: shot one hit Kennedy in the throat, shot two missed, shot three hit Kennedy in the head. The throat shot and head shot could be timed from the Zapruder film at about 4.6 seconds.
A lot of modern researchers believe the first shot was just before the limo passed under the tree, a quick shot that missed; making shots two and three the hits, about five seconds apart. Total time for the three shots counting first missed, is about 8 seconds. Failure Analysis Associates had one of the more detailed reconstructions.
The last shot, Zapruder frame 313, distance from 6th story TSBD to limousine was 265.3 feet (88.4 yards) moving directly away from the window. He did not need a high precision rifle with a target trigger to make that shot.
Back to the opening post #1, "It still seems strange to chose the Carcano." It seemed strange to me that Alpha 66 was caught smuggling 6.5 Carcono rifles and ammo to anti-Castro Cubans, but it was all they could afford. Oswald wanted a rifle and had maybe $30 bucks to spare for a Carcano with a scope and 108 rounds of ammo. It wasn't strange it was economical. Everything better was more expensive than his lone nut loser budget allowed. (Or, choosing an less than optimum rifle was part of the grand conspiracy; they had used a plasma laser, the hand of the Roswell Grays would have been obvious.)
Isn't there a SWAT team that trains shooting left handed, operating the bolt with the right?
Five or so seconds is based on the Warren Commission worst timing case scenario: shot one hit Kennedy in the throat, shot two missed, shot three hit Kennedy in the head. The throat shot and head shot could be timed from the Zapruder film at about 4.6 seconds.
A lot of modern researchers believe the first shot was just before the limo passed under the tree, a quick shot that missed; making shots two and three the hits, about five seconds apart. Total time for the three shots counting first missed, is about 8 seconds. Failure Analysis Associates had one of the more detailed reconstructions.
The last shot, Zapruder frame 313, distance from 6th story TSBD to limousine was 265.3 feet (88.4 yards) moving directly away from the window. He did not need a high precision rifle with a target trigger to make that shot.
Back to the opening post #1, "It still seems strange to chose the Carcano." It seemed strange to me that Alpha 66 was caught smuggling 6.5 Carcono rifles and ammo to anti-Castro Cubans, but it was all they could afford. Oswald wanted a rifle and had maybe $30 bucks to spare for a Carcano with a scope and 108 rounds of ammo. It wasn't strange it was economical. Everything better was more expensive than his lone nut loser budget allowed. (Or, choosing an less than optimum rifle was part of the grand conspiracy; they had used a plasma laser, the hand of the Roswell Grays would have been obvious.)
jim in Anchorage
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I will never get the expected etiquette here. This thread goes 3 pages, but when I mentioned in the.44 bull dog thread the gun reminded me of son of sam I was widely criticized for mentioning a well known murderer connected with a particular gun, and told it wasn't "high road."
Carl N. Brown
Member
^The opening post question was The gun Oswald used: That makes discussing the murderer's choice on-topic.[added]
Post #56: Color of the wood, brown or black. My Carcano is a 91/38 made at Terni in 1940. I suppose it would photograph as either black or dark brown. I have seen Carcanos with stocks that are almost blond.
(That's a 100 yd group from the bench at a black powder cartridge match (3.4cc Triple Seven, 160 grain bullet). 6.5 Carcano is not the best choice for BP shooting, and most of the guys with 45-70s did better at benchrest. But it worked.)
Post #56: Color of the wood, brown or black. My Carcano is a 91/38 made at Terni in 1940. I suppose it would photograph as either black or dark brown. I have seen Carcanos with stocks that are almost blond.
(That's a 100 yd group from the bench at a black powder cartridge match (3.4cc Triple Seven, 160 grain bullet). 6.5 Carcano is not the best choice for BP shooting, and most of the guys with 45-70s did better at benchrest. But it worked.)
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Bobson
Member
Lol what? That's not a question at all, and certainly not the question posed in the OP.
The opening post's question was, why would LHO - given that he was very experienced and accomplished with a readily available American rifle, choose such a comparatively obscure foreign rifle (that was generally thought of as subpar) to assassinate JFK?
THAT is the topic of this thread, not the Carcano rifle itself. And while that question has been answered, and answered well (IMO), if that doesn't scream "conspiracy theory thread" to ya...
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Red Wind
Member
Jim, I think the solemnity and horror of the event increases the etiquette. And there are a lot of older,knowledgeable buffs on THR with vast reading and visuals of the incredible, JFK, LHO,JR triangle.
The crime of more than one American Century and stuff the greatest fiction writers in history could never make up.
The crime of more than one American Century and stuff the greatest fiction writers in history could never make up.
Nanook
Member
Sometime within the last 10 years, I saw a Carcano at a local gun shop, which is now closed.
The price was $50. It was in pretty nice shape, nice wood, a real short carbine. I have no specifics on barrel length or anything else, but it was interesting to see it there.
I never saw that rifle leave that shop in 5 years of patronage.
The price was $50. It was in pretty nice shape, nice wood, a real short carbine. I have no specifics on barrel length or anything else, but it was interesting to see it there.
I never saw that rifle leave that shop in 5 years of patronage.
Traffer
Member
My apologies for starting the thread. It was something that I had wondered since the event. I should have done some research first. I don't like remembering all this stuff. On the other hand I sure learned a lot about Carcano's
Gun Master
Member
OP
No apologies necessary, my friend.
That's what THR is all about.
Remember, "It doesn't hurt to ask." , and "The dumbest question is the one you never ask."
No apologies necessary, my friend.
That's what THR is all about.
Remember, "It doesn't hurt to ask." , and "The dumbest question is the one you never ask."
Red Wind
Member
I think Rondog forgot the sarcasm emoticon!
Officers'Wife
Member
Out of honest curiosity... that happened when? 1963? 1964? How is the rifle used important knowledge now? And keep in mind that I was born in 1986 and don't have the emotional investment in the Kennedy's that an ancient would.
Gaucho Gringo
Member
Most of the assassinations or attempted assassinations in the US or Europe from the mid 1800's to present day were committed by an average joe as M-Cameron states. Some of them were part of a larger group but the assassins them selves were mostly young students, disaffected loners(Oswald), mentally ill, disgruntled office seekers or members of a cult or similar group. A majority of them had either not shot or had limited experience with firearms. As John Wayne said in the Shootist to be on the lookout "For that dumbass amateur. There's always some six-fingered bustard that couldn't hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup. That's the one who usually does you in." Not exactly the same but it does convey the meaning.
I have handled Carcano's, examined the actions, and I do not believe they were junk. The WW2 generation based its opinions of weapons on the fighting quality of the Armies they fought. Germans kicked ass, so American GI's thought highly of German weapons. For most service men, Italians knew they were on the wrong side, were badly lead, poorly supplied, and eager to quit. So American GI's thought poorly of Italian weapons. The evaluation of Japanese weapons were a bit more complicated. The WW2 generation held very racist views about Japanese.:bug eyed little guys with buck teeth. They also were very nasty fighters, would rather die than surrender. The Japanese were brutal to their own men, who in turn, were brutal to the enemy. I knew many a WW2 veteran and all of them hated the Japanese, hated them till their dying day. The WW2 generation thought Japanese weapons were junk, but they were wrong about Arisaka rifles, just as they were about Carcano's. The Arisaka is a very well designed rifle, and good versions are very well built. The last ditch rifles look rough, but they will go bang and not hurt the user.
The WW2 generation had very racist and Nationalistic opinions about their enemies and their weapons. It does not mean they were right.
Oswald bought a surplus military weapon with a scope. It was cheap, but it was not junk. It sure blew the brains out of JFK, poor guy. He did not deserve to die on National television. I have been to the Plaza, the distances are very short, and I am of the opinion, I could have made the first shot easily. It is so short, I might have made it with a pistol. The second one would have required a quick bolt manipulation, but I think it would have been easy for someone shooting using a rest, and off the left shoulder. A lefty could have kept the right hand on the bolt handle.
The class of 1964 will soon be joining JFK in the grave. The sooner the better as I am tired of their generational irrationality about the JFK assassination. As a class they were so fascinated about Jackie, Johnny, Teddy, Bobbie, and all thing Kennedy. And the pain, the horrible obsessive pain around that terrible moment when their world crashed and burned in Texas. Well, the good thing is, they are reaching the end of the line, and when they are all nice and dead and quiet, the world will no longer have to listen to their pain and paranoia.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Now, now, Slamfire, I plan on hanging around a while.
What stands out in my memory about the rifle is the amount of argument about "Could have" vs. "Nah, not with that junker." Reading about the distance, I figured that most any rifle could have been used. A gimme shot.
Otherwise? Beaucoup CYA and finger-pointing in all directions. The downside of the tragedy was that we wound up with Ol' Jugears as the president.
What stands out in my memory about the rifle is the amount of argument about "Could have" vs. "Nah, not with that junker." Reading about the distance, I figured that most any rifle could have been used. A gimme shot.
Otherwise? Beaucoup CYA and finger-pointing in all directions. The downside of the tragedy was that we wound up with Ol' Jugears as the president.
Oldman1151
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November 22, 1963 during my seventh grade math class. Something I will never forget. The event still interests me a lot. Two years ago I finally visited the actual site, stood on the street on the exact spot where Kennedy was shot, looked out the window where Ozwald supposedly took his shots and stood on the grassy noal which has changed my perspective on the chain of events of what happened that day and years to follow. What gun he used and how he got access (mail order as I recall) to it is also of interest to me. I guess I am ancient too.
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