Gun Vault

[Trent]

So, I've got this "burr up my behind" to build a gun vault on to my house. However, I'm hoping there's some contractors or construction guys on here who might be able to give me advice, since I know diddly squat about the construction trade..

Requirements:

Approx 12'x24' foot dimensions

Want reinforced concrete walls + roof (sufficient that it can handle the load of a house/large tree/automobile falling on it)

Will be built on to an exterior wall of my house, under a large deck

Want to be able to stand up to a moderate tornado (will double as tornado shelter)

Want a heavy vault door

Need to consider HVAC/electrical solutions to the addition. (How to keep it heated/cooled)

Since it's to be built on the exterior (back) wall of the house, under a large deck, I'll need the wall of the house cut & opened up for the entryway. The house has 2x6 exterior framing, and if the wall of the addition are solid concrete on all 4 sides, this means the entry way will be somewhere upwards of 13" thick (6" wood framing on the house, 1" of wallboard on either side, plus about 6" of concrete.)

Worried about water between the house & addition; figure a sloped roof on the concrete building would move water away from the house.

Any ideas on building a 288 sq foot safe room/tornado shelter/gun vault?

What should I know or be familiar with before I talk to a contractor? I don't want to sound like a clueless idiot, and I want to know what to ask THEM to properly vet them for the job.

Thanks in advance..

 

[Teachu2]

Ask them if they've ever done tornado shelters or panic rooms. Verify their contractor's license. Don't mention your guns - tell them you'll have electronics inside and need it to be dry. Tell them you will also be storing pictures, tax records, and family heirlooms, so you want a vault-style door with an inside release.

You will want a contractor who has experience with pour-in-place concrete structures. Look for one that does commercial construction. One that does banks would be ideal.

You might want to consider concealing the door behind a moveable bookcase or the like.

 

[X-Rap]

I'm going to assume that you have a walkout basement and you are wanting to put this vault at the current floor grade of the basement.
If this is correct I would replace the existing 2x6 wall with an 8" cast in place wall to match the other 3 exterior sides of the vault. You can keep the roof level inside and just slope the top away from the house at a slight grade. I would consider some type of rubber membrane over the concrete roof in case the concrete cracks as it tends to do.
A foam block out around the inside perimeter of 2x2 or 3x3" will be adequate to lay in Q decking for the roof and require a single temporary support if laid the 12' direction.
Permits, soil conditions, and climate will also dictate your design but it is certainly something that can be done by yourself with some friends or family.
Once you settle on a size and design you can go to a patten form dealer and they can rent you the whole package as well as supply accessories and typically make a drawing showing placement of forms, ties and bracing.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The above was good advice. If you're half a redneck you could consider placing one of those steel containers, you know, the shipping containers, right where you want it and forming the outside and pouring/encasing it with re-bar'd concrete. I'd probably spray it with asphalt first. Just a thought.
Good luck.

 

[Beat-tu]

Need to think about keeping the vault door closed (but not locked) during tornado, and how to get it open from the inside if the house collapses on the vault and door...

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
It might be smart to have it open in.. if they make such a thing.

 

[Trent]

I'm going to assume that you have a walkout basement and you are wanting to put this vault at the current floor grade of the basement.

Yes, the land slopes down. Front side of the house is approx 5' deep, back of the basement is 1 foot deep on one side, flush on the other.

Taking out a 24 foot long section of the basement wall.. not sure if that's viable, there's two stories above it. That'd remove more than half of the load bearing capability of that exterior wall while it's being done...

 

[Trent]

Good thoughts on the direction of the vault door. The house is split level, 5 levels - 3 on the back side, 2 on the front. This will be in BACK of the house. Which means, if the house gets hit, I could potentially have 50 tons of lumber over / around us.

The tornado shelter is a high concern of mine; with the front of the basement only being 5' deep, the back being flush with grade, we don't REALLY have a good place to go. With 8 people in the house, cramming underneath the stairwell is really not possible. We usually congregate on the front side (deeper) part in the basement when the sirens go off. And once, when a cell was tracking directly AT us on radar, my boys and I made a heck of a fast move of firearms in the upstairs cabinet down to the basement. Lost a few big trees that day.

I have a friend who lived through the Greensburg EF5 - in fact, the very next day I was helping him get his servers up and running in Bucklin, KS. Looked like a frigging nuclear weapon went off in Greensburg. Also have family and friends who were in South Pekin, IL when it was blasted by an F3 back in 2002, that wiped out about 15% of the town's structures.

I'd like this to stand up to a strong F3 (200 mph winds), so there's some structural concerns relating to that as well.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Eight people. Something like that'd be on my list to get done too. Come to think of it, with some of the above considered, I'd a least have like a brother or something know of this vault.. in case you do get trapped. Another thing that might be considered would be a good battery operated circular masonry/steel cutting saw - they'll cut through anything. And perhaps some sort of antenna type thing to make sure your cell phone signal can get out, were it to come to that.

 

[Bobson]

I grew up surrounded by the construction trade, but never seen or dealt with the reinforcements you're asking about. The whole concrete reinforcement to tornado shelter bit changes this from what would have been a fairly basic, inexpensive project, into a whole other playing field. Definitely interested in following this. Hope you get some detailed advice here.

I will say this - I would absolutely relish the opportunity to be physically present and get my hands dirty in the construction process on this project. I highly suggest that if the OP has the opportunity to do so, he takes it. The satisfaction when the job is completed will raise to a whole new level.

 

[Trent]

Certaindeaf - good ideas. I wasn't planning on having any windows in the vault, for obvious reasons. And with a sealed vault door, it'll be airtight, excepting the extension to the HVAC system in to there (single 6" vent w/ damper, another 6" vent for passive return air). I should probably consider a battery powered fan on the return air, to force fresh air through the room, should power be lost. Especially if we have 50 tons of house and an SUV on top of us.

I only know of ONE such "safe room", it was installed at a local John Deere dealer the same year everyone in that dealership stood outside and watched a tornado tear a neighboring factory to little tiny pieces. 6 foot steel i-beams twisted like scraps of paper. ALL employees in that factory survived, because the bathrooms were built centrally in the building, and were designed to be a tornado shelter. Those heavy duty bathrooms saved a LOT of lives that day.

Anyway, I'm friends with the owner of that particular John Deere dealership, and he gave me the name of the contractor who built his business's tornado shelter. That one, by the way, was designed to be strong enough to have a 40 ton dump truck or bulldozer dropped on the roof of it. (Their entire yard surrounding the dealership is essentially a collection of 30-50 ton big metal wrecking balls in the shape of backhoes and dozers, should a tornado come through; very frigging dangerous to human well being).

Currently, under the deck out back, level with the basement, is a large utility shed - so the land is already graded properly. Just need to tear out that big shed under my deck, and replace it with a big fortified concrete bunker.

The firearm requirement is because lately I've had to be picky about what firearms go in the safes, too many to fit.

And I always wanted a room like you see in the movies, where I could (safely, and securely) just mount all these rifles up for display, instead of packing them in to an overgrown sardine can.

The building, being thick enough, and of solid concrete, not to mention not IN the house but NEXT to the house, should also make the firearms FAR more secure against fire. Not much will beat 6+" of reinforced concrete for a fire barrier.

 

[Trent]

First contractor is going to give me an estimate for material & labor cost on Monday. He said "if the number doesn't scare you away we'll come out and look to fine tune it".

Bit nervous about the implications of what that means, as far as price.

Couple things that concerned me, the sewer lines to the house run under the shed out back to our septic, not sure how DEEP they are. But the guy I talked to said that the shelter needs to be at least 36" deep below grade. (Something about freezing, thawing, ground heaving and stuff). Which means I'll need to involve another contractor to relocate or deepen the lines going to the septic. Septic tank is about 3' beyond the outer wall of the planned extension, so the tank itself is clear; the lines going to it are probably going to bet in the way...

That would put the interior dimensions at 12' x 24' x 11' ; resulting in a 3 foot drop from the basement in to the attached concrete building, but with the ceiling level to the ceiling of the basement..

Now to wait through the weekend for the materials cost...

 

[chhodge69]

I think he means that the footing has to be 36" deep to get below the frost line for whatever area you are in. If your floor is at -3' your footings will be even deeper.

IMO you need an architect or an engineer to design this or at the least to review what the contractor proposes and periodically inspect what he's building BEFORE you pay for it.

Think about it - if you don't know enough about the business to tell when something isn't right it will be money well spent to have a third party check up on things for you before you start writing big checks.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Get multiple bids with vetted/proved contractors regarding the exact same plan/design.
Don't always go with the lowball number.

 

[Trent]

Ahh yeah he probably did mean the footing. When he was saying dimensions it was 11' but that makes sense; they'll likely pour the whole thing in one shot.

If the floor isn't 3' down that'll make it a lot easier - won't need to move the sewer line, they should be able to pour the footings right around the pipe.

 

[rayatphonix]

I'm just beginning a somewhat similar project. I'm probably going to go with a door similar to what these guys offer or perhaps theirs.

http://www.rhinovault.com/SAFEROOMDOORS.htm

This may be of some help.

 

[jad0110]

And with a sealed vault door, it'll be airtight, excepting the extension to the HVAC system in to there (single 6" vent w/ damper, another 6" vent for passive return air).

The OP might consider a "mini split" ductless HVAC system. LG and Mitsubishi are two of the better brands. I'm running a 1 ton 20 SEER LG unit to heat and cool a 200 sq ft addition on my house. It was the perfect solution. I paid quite a bit for the higher energy rating (I think 13 to 15 SEER models are available for less initial outlay), though as a result I saw no appreciable change in my utility bill.

From Mitsubishi's website:

"The system is comprised of two units: a slim-line outdoor condenser, and an indoor air handler. The condenser supplies coolant to the air handler through refrigerant lines that run through a small opening [from jad: a few inches in diameter ... also, the condensate line from the indoor air handler can run through the same opening] in the wall or ceiling and into the back of the unit. The air handler takes in supply air from the room through the front grill and dispenses the newly-cooled air back into the room. For certain models special filters are available that promote added humidity control and filtration."

 

[oneounceload]

You'll need heat,air,and humidity controls as well as exterior French drains, especially if this is below grade level. IF it is also to be storm/panic room, a separate air supply in case you get trapped in there from a storm would be advisable, as would a small wire antenna so you could signal for help from a cell phone or radio device. If storing lots of ammo/powder explosives, it might need a weak spot to allow for pressure release to avoid a bobm effect.

An architect familiar with these design requirements might be your best friend in doing this and doing it right and to code in your area

 

[Trent]

Yeah the contractor didn't have a CLUE about where to go for a "vault door". He said they have hurricane rated FEMA doors, but that's not really what I'm looking for. Could just about hear the eyebrows raise over the phone...

F5 storm shelters are made as a drop-in unit by this company: http://www.f-5stormshelters.com/SafeRooms/index.html

Stumbled on them while doing research today, dunno how I missed them before. 12' by 20' is listed at $34,725.00. Install $11,170.00, for a total of $45,895. Those are rated for F5. They can also outfit them with bio/chemical filtering gear for about $10k. And there's even a blurb on there about nuclear hardening.

Now, that gives me a baseline to work off of, and it means that (in theory) the baseline project should not exceed my budget; I have an unused $50K HELOC I can tap, and I own 100% of my home (no mortgage). So funding is there, for sure.

Still doing research.

Those safe room doors site linked to by Ray; I like how that place advertises protection against 44 Mag and Ak-47 rounds... I don't want protection FROM guns.. I want protection FOR guns!

 

[Trent]

I won't store primer & powders in there - that's begging for trouble. Would turn a big reinforced concrete bunker in to a big frigging bomb! Pressure accelerates the burn on smokeless powder.. I store powder on shelves, away from sunlight, not contained, in lots of 25lbs or less, separated from one another by at least 10 feet, and primers in a metal cabinet with a (very) flimsy door. Extra powder (I have a few 50lb kegs of surplus 50BMG powder) are stored off-site.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Yeah the contractor didn't have a CLUE about where to go for a "vault door"..

That's understandable. That's why you need a plan. A plan delineates every single thing to be executed/rendered and with what.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Yeah the contractor didn't have a CLUE about where to go for a "vault door". He said they have hurricane rated FEMA doors, but that's not really what I'm looking for. Could just about hear the eyebrows raise over the phone...

F5 storm shelters are made as a drop-in unit by this company: http://www.f-5stormshelters.com/SafeRooms/index.html

Stumbled on them while doing research today, dunno how I missed them before. 12' by 20' is listed at $34,725.00. Install $11,170.00, for a total of $45,895. Those are rated for F5. They can also outfit them with bio/chemical filtering gear for about $10k. And there's even a blurb on there about nuclear hardening.

Now, that gives me a baseline to work off of, and it means that (in theory) the baseline project should not exceed my budget; I have an unused $50K HELOC I can tap, and I own 100% of my home (no mortgage). So funding is there, for sure.

Still doing research.

Those safe room doors site linked to by Ray; I like how that place advertises protection against 44 Mag and Ak-47 rounds... I don't want protection FROM guns.. I want protection FOR guns!

Does that number include marrying it to an existing structure and systems or is it a stand-alone?

 

[Trent]

No, that's just the standalone figure; from what little I could gather on their site, it's valid for new construction only, not for 'add on'.

A man I know in Rock Island said that you can buy vault doors from certain safe manufacturers, so I guess that's the direction to look on that one.

Didn't figure this project would be easy, or fast. I have a timeline of "sometime before the ground freezes." But, not so sure I can even hit that with it being this late in the year.

I have this vague mental picture of what I want the inside to look like. And I know the dimensions, and some general specs that I posted above. Other than that .. winging it. Which is why I asked for ideas and info on here. Figure there's a wide assortment of folks from various walks of life that could pitch in some knowledge.

The mental image I have is something like this (the image that went with the rumor that it was Charlton Heston's gun room, which turned out to be false):



This door might be overkill though:

 

[Trent]

Granted, I don't have anywhere NEAR the collection whoever this is has... however, the principal is the same.

 

[X-Rap]

Trent
I answered earlier in the thread.
Temparary shoring under the existing floor shouldn't be that difficult if you choose to replace the framing. As for the entrance being blocked, you could form a u shaped entry way with a inward opening storm door on the outside and then 3-4' in install a cast in place vault frame and door and not use it during storms.
Venting, power, heat and com will just need to be worked out on site since none of us can really see exactly what your situation is.
I'm a contractor and I wish I was in your local.