Is it that you prefer "deaths via firearm" to "firearm deaths", or are you suggesting that the distinction of how a murder or accident occurs should be hidden and never discussed?
Gun Violence Compared to Gun Ownership
- Thread starter Grumulkin
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I like this: and this: http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2016/01/america-doesnt-have-gun-problem-it-has_4.html
Do you think there is any chance we aren't #1 in both categories? Even the low estimates put us way up there.
Most US homicides are gang related, and most of those are committed with a handgun.
Suicides should not be counted. While in general the population may disagree with suicide, stopping people from harming themselves by banning objects is an impossibility. Everyone has knives, lengths of rope or cord, chemicals, drugs, access to cliffs or high locations, etc You cannot stop people from killing themselves over any long term, and one could even argue that having people around that don't want to be alive is detrimental to the safety of everyone anyways. They are less likely to care about the consequences of their actions.
A large number of suicide attempts documented are not real attempts but for attention. Those using a gun likely know it will be effective and so are not trying to get attention. I would venture many of those same people successful with a firearm would have been successful if they had to use another method because it is a segment that really is choosing to die.
The CDC and FBI have race and age based statistics. Well when you understand what communities have higher rates of street gangs and plug in the race and age based statistics too things all fit together, along with some other info as well.
You find young black males are far and away disproportionate in the statistics. That specific age bracket, sex, and race, make up around 2-4% (all black males are around 6% of the US population) of the entire US population but commit around 50% of all the homicides.
Think about that, an even smaller percentage of people from around 4% of a population is committing 50% of its murders and a similar percentage of many of its violent crimes.
This is due to the gangster culture and peaked in 1993 (though some regions peaked earlier or later) after it escalated and grew as a problem through the 1980s. Combined with Crack Cocaine hitting the streets providing large incomes to these gangs and turning a lot of their community into drug addicts.
While things have tapered off since then, and crack is not as common, that segment of society is still responsible for most homicides, and things are bad in several big cities.
I have also seen statistics that show that in the 1960s when the homicide rate of blacks more closely matched the general population most blacks were born into married families, having a father and mother figure. Even with fewer economic opportunities and racial discrimination and segregation back then, there was a much lower crime rate.
While today most don't have a father. They were still poor though, so economics was not the primary difference.
Violent street gangs are often a way to belong, make up for a lack of real family, while also appealing to teenagers by giving them a sense of power and purpose. Take a bunch of male teenagers without a positive father or male role model, with aggression and teenage angst, then make a hip hop and gangster rap culture their self identity and give them negative male role models, and they do stupid stuff at a much greater rate.
A quick google and here is an article mentioning much of the same things and citing statistics:
http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7-statistics-you-need-know-about-black-black-crime-aaron-bandler#
Well homicide is only one of the statistics, and if you look at violent crimes in general many of them also follow the same trend, and young black males commit violent crimes at a rate several fold higher than the rest of the population.
For the same reason there is actually a shortage of black males in society at any given time. Many don't make it, and even more are in prison. 1 in 10 in their 20s and early 30s are in prison at any given time, and many more on parole/probation. 'More than one out of every six black men who today should be between 25 and 54 years old have disappeared from daily life.'
With a shortage of men in certain communities, it also promotes a lack of commitment in relationships. There is more women, which leads to them being more desperate to find a mate in a smaller dating pool, and when problems arise in a relationship it is easier for the males to just move on than work them out because there is plenty of women ready to be the new baby momma and settle for them:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...a-definite-shortage-of-marriageable-black-men
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/20/upshot/missing-black-men.html
Lowest rate of marriage, highest rate of divorce, and over 70% born out of marriage.
And each baby momma that gangster thug has is one more single parent raising someone more likely to repeat the cycle.
On top of that sex between men both consensual and rape is high in prisons and a lot of people come out with HIV as the rate of transmission is highest between men, making it a big problem in society when these men who are more muscular and fit than the general population get out of prison and start sleeping around.
This has been hitting the black community hardest who have the highest incarceration rates, but it spreads to the rest of the population as well as sex has no racial lines. Which of course further erodes family bonds and is a leading cause of the spread of HIV in our society as a whole.
A lot of those same government statistics count hispanics as white, even more so the further back you go in the statistics they kept, and anyone on the streets knows a lot of the same gangster culture is present with many hispanic gangs who have adopted and altered the black gangster culture and made it their own.
While being relatively uncommon in the general white mainstream population.
Not a lot of actual white street gangsters engaged in turf wars.
Meaning many of the long term statistics actually have a higher white rate than they would if not counting hispanic gangs, and yet are still several times lower than the black homicide rate.
The mainstream culture, while not synonymous with any race or ethnicity, does follow some demographic trends, and is clearly different from the gangster culture which does tend to be most plentiful in certain demographics.
That mainstream culture actually has a very low homicide rate.
If you are more of the mainstream culture irregardless of your race or ethnicity you actually have a lower rate of being a victim of violent crime than in many countries with officially lower rates even when you account for similar demographics in some of those populations. The US has the biggest gangster thug population. We have free speech, which without public backlash allows people to promote even the most self destructive lifestyles. We as a result cannot simply outlaw it, and it requires the communities to actively make it unattractive and stop the cycle of problems it creates.
I make reference to the race statistics because our government keeps them and they do highlight the struggles different demographics have in our country.
The real homicide problem is a gangster culture that the mainstream population and the black community have allowed to be glorified and even promoted as black culture, often I think out of politically correct racially sensitive politics. Even the currently most popular show with black people in positions of success and power seems to promotes it, Empire.
Though there does seem to be a lot less gangster rap about killing rivals and being a self destructive bad ass, as was really common in the 1990s. Now more rap seems to focus on glamorizing making money and maximizing how many women you can sleep with.
Suicides should not be counted. While in general the population may disagree with suicide, stopping people from harming themselves by banning objects is an impossibility. Everyone has knives, lengths of rope or cord, chemicals, drugs, access to cliffs or high locations, etc You cannot stop people from killing themselves over any long term, and one could even argue that having people around that don't want to be alive is detrimental to the safety of everyone anyways. They are less likely to care about the consequences of their actions.
A large number of suicide attempts documented are not real attempts but for attention. Those using a gun likely know it will be effective and so are not trying to get attention. I would venture many of those same people successful with a firearm would have been successful if they had to use another method because it is a segment that really is choosing to die.
The CDC and FBI have race and age based statistics. Well when you understand what communities have higher rates of street gangs and plug in the race and age based statistics too things all fit together, along with some other info as well.
You find young black males are far and away disproportionate in the statistics. That specific age bracket, sex, and race, make up around 2-4% (all black males are around 6% of the US population) of the entire US population but commit around 50% of all the homicides.
Think about that, an even smaller percentage of people from around 4% of a population is committing 50% of its murders and a similar percentage of many of its violent crimes.
This is due to the gangster culture and peaked in 1993 (though some regions peaked earlier or later) after it escalated and grew as a problem through the 1980s. Combined with Crack Cocaine hitting the streets providing large incomes to these gangs and turning a lot of their community into drug addicts.
While things have tapered off since then, and crack is not as common, that segment of society is still responsible for most homicides, and things are bad in several big cities.
I have also seen statistics that show that in the 1960s when the homicide rate of blacks more closely matched the general population most blacks were born into married families, having a father and mother figure. Even with fewer economic opportunities and racial discrimination and segregation back then, there was a much lower crime rate.
While today most don't have a father. They were still poor though, so economics was not the primary difference.
Violent street gangs are often a way to belong, make up for a lack of real family, while also appealing to teenagers by giving them a sense of power and purpose. Take a bunch of male teenagers without a positive father or male role model, with aggression and teenage angst, then make a hip hop and gangster rap culture their self identity and give them negative male role models, and they do stupid stuff at a much greater rate.
A quick google and here is an article mentioning much of the same things and citing statistics:
http://www.dailywire.com/news/7441/7-statistics-you-need-know-about-black-black-crime-aaron-bandler#
Well homicide is only one of the statistics, and if you look at violent crimes in general many of them also follow the same trend, and young black males commit violent crimes at a rate several fold higher than the rest of the population.
For the same reason there is actually a shortage of black males in society at any given time. Many don't make it, and even more are in prison. 1 in 10 in their 20s and early 30s are in prison at any given time, and many more on parole/probation. 'More than one out of every six black men who today should be between 25 and 54 years old have disappeared from daily life.'
With a shortage of men in certain communities, it also promotes a lack of commitment in relationships. There is more women, which leads to them being more desperate to find a mate in a smaller dating pool, and when problems arise in a relationship it is easier for the males to just move on than work them out because there is plenty of women ready to be the new baby momma and settle for them:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebat...a-definite-shortage-of-marriageable-black-men
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/04/20/upshot/missing-black-men.html
Lowest rate of marriage, highest rate of divorce, and over 70% born out of marriage.
And each baby momma that gangster thug has is one more single parent raising someone more likely to repeat the cycle.
On top of that sex between men both consensual and rape is high in prisons and a lot of people come out with HIV as the rate of transmission is highest between men, making it a big problem in society when these men who are more muscular and fit than the general population get out of prison and start sleeping around.
This has been hitting the black community hardest who have the highest incarceration rates, but it spreads to the rest of the population as well as sex has no racial lines. Which of course further erodes family bonds and is a leading cause of the spread of HIV in our society as a whole.
A lot of those same government statistics count hispanics as white, even more so the further back you go in the statistics they kept, and anyone on the streets knows a lot of the same gangster culture is present with many hispanic gangs who have adopted and altered the black gangster culture and made it their own.
While being relatively uncommon in the general white mainstream population.
Not a lot of actual white street gangsters engaged in turf wars.
Meaning many of the long term statistics actually have a higher white rate than they would if not counting hispanic gangs, and yet are still several times lower than the black homicide rate.
The mainstream culture, while not synonymous with any race or ethnicity, does follow some demographic trends, and is clearly different from the gangster culture which does tend to be most plentiful in certain demographics.
That mainstream culture actually has a very low homicide rate.
If you are more of the mainstream culture irregardless of your race or ethnicity you actually have a lower rate of being a victim of violent crime than in many countries with officially lower rates even when you account for similar demographics in some of those populations. The US has the biggest gangster thug population. We have free speech, which without public backlash allows people to promote even the most self destructive lifestyles. We as a result cannot simply outlaw it, and it requires the communities to actively make it unattractive and stop the cycle of problems it creates.
I make reference to the race statistics because our government keeps them and they do highlight the struggles different demographics have in our country.
The real homicide problem is a gangster culture that the mainstream population and the black community have allowed to be glorified and even promoted as black culture, often I think out of politically correct racially sensitive politics. Even the currently most popular show with black people in positions of success and power seems to promotes it, Empire.
Though there does seem to be a lot less gangster rap about killing rivals and being a self destructive bad ass, as was really common in the 1990s. Now more rap seems to focus on glamorizing making money and maximizing how many women you can sleep with.
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Posted by RX-79G
The point, and of course you know this, was the deceitful way the anti's use the statistics. If you defend that you are just helping them out.
Not the point and you know it.
Also has nothing to do with the discussion. No use trying to make sense of some of the idiosyncrasies in the law on various subjects anyway. I think we could all agree it's a mess.
Again, nothing to do with the discussion. The blame game is a complete waste of time and something our anti friends just don't get.
The point, and of course you know this, was the deceitful way the anti's use the statistics. If you defend that you are just helping them out.
In guns per capita we are likely #1 by far but it is a useless number. It only takes a single gun to shoot someone so a guy with 1000 guns in no more deadly than a guy with 1.
If you want to know if more people owning guns leads to more or less violence you need to know the percentage of people that own guns. We don't have any real numbers for that though polls put it at about 30% of the population. There are several developed countries that could be higher including Isreal, Switzerland, and Finland. Sweden, Czech Republic and Norway are up there too.
Not to mention if we want to look at crime in the USA it is more valuable to compare crime today vs crime in our own history or crime rates between regions or states in the USA. We have no real data to do that.
From
"Memorandum by Mr Colin Greenwood
FIREARM CONTROLS IN BRITAIN PART I THE HISTORY OF FIREARMS CONTROLS IN GREAT BRITAIN"
on www.publications.parliament.uk/
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Your point seemed to be that there was some dishonesty about reporting the deaths of children as children. What is your point?
The problem is that it is politically advantageous for us if gun ownership numbers are high. If having a gun is a relatively rare thing, then that lends credence to the idea that having a gun contributes to using a gun.
But if the ownership rate is high (because many gun owners aren't going to tell a pollster about their valuables), then that means that the number of people who use guns for crime is very low despite their availability.
harrygunner
Member
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,045
Looking within the U.S. also gives interesting results. I compared two states at opposite ends of the "gun control" scale; California and Idaho.
California has about 3.8 times as many firearms related murders, per capita than Idaho. At the same time, on a per capita basis, Idahoans own nearly three times as many guns.
Normalizing for population and ownership percentages, for firearms related deaths, they occur a little over ten times more in California than in Idaho.
California has about 3.8 times as many firearms related murders, per capita than Idaho. At the same time, on a per capita basis, Idahoans own nearly three times as many guns.
Normalizing for population and ownership percentages, for firearms related deaths, they occur a little over ten times more in California than in Idaho.
The obvious point is that the left uses the stats of young gang bangers killed to pad statistics and try to make the unknowing public think they are all innocent little kid next door types. Simply not true. It doesn't get the anti gun support vote out by saying we need to save little gang bangers, but it gets heartfelt support making it look like good innocent kids being killed by accident.
You knew that already of course, but admitting it doesn't make for a good argument, so.......
Idaho and California have nothing in common so they make for a very poor comparison.
No, I'm actually one of those horrible people that feels the death of even gang children is a bad thing.
danez71
Member
Why would you limit the choices to only those unless you're try to steer this to your preconceived conclusion or agenda?
Then you should be wanting to focus on why the murder took place and not the method of murder.
That you purposely avoided this option above indicates that you're not interested in, or are avoiding, having a meaningful discussion. Instead, you're continually steering the discussion to misleading and meaningless banter.
danez71
Member
From what you just said, they should be called gang and drug related murders.
Why didnt you include those choices rather than throwing out a red hearing by alluding something that wasn't there?
Is it because you'd rather foster the misconception that they where gun murders?
Why didnt you include those choices rather than throwing out a red hearing by alluding something that wasn't there?
Is it because you'd rather foster the misconception that they where gun murders?
Look, I'm not interested in what you're selling. There are plenty of people to choose from on THR if I want to engage in an ever changing argument about nothing, just so you can make some (poor) attempt to make me look bad.
Shall I just set you on ignore, or would you like to stick to a topic?
danez71
Member
You have steered away from the topic as I pointed out above and Walkalong pointed out a few times on page 2.
You're making yourself look bad.
You can make your own choice.
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