Gun vs rifle

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Noobian

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A bit noobish question here:
What would have the most stopping power of a gun vs a assault rifle or battle rifle?
Say a 9 mm vs the 5.56 and the 7.62
Does the long rifle cartridge do more then adding range?

I'm not an experienced shooter, just trying to understand gun fire

Any and all imput would be welcomed
 
Oh and what happens if we put the FN200's 5.7x28mm into the mix? Less, same or more stopping power then the 9mm?
 
You're really going to have to clean up the question before you can get any help whatsoever.
 
First, some terminology corrections:

The term gun can mean any firearm, though in the military its often used to denote fixed artillery.

The term you are looking for is handgun or pistol.


Ok, now that that's out of the way: The longer case of the rifle cartridge allows more gun powder to be used, which increases velocity. This gives added range, and due to basic physics, also gives added energy (energy = mass * velocity^2).

Hence, a 9mm will have a lot less energy than a 7.62x51 NATO cartridge. A lot less. IIRC, 9mm have around 300 - 400 ftlbs of energy. A 7.62x51 NATO cartridge, on the other hand, has around 2500 ftlbs of energy, depending on the size of bullet used (heavier bullets increase the energy).
 
First of all, I assume by "gun" you mean "handgun." A "battle rifle" is defined as a rifle suitable for combat, firing a full power cartrige -- the M1 Garand (.30-06) and the M14 (7.62X51) are examples.

An "assault rifle" is defined as a selective fire weapon chambered for an intermediate cartridge -- half-way between a full power rifle cartridge and a handgun cartridge. Examples are the M16 (5.56X45 NATO) and the AK 47 (7.62X39.)

Handguns are therefore by definition less powerful than assault rifles, and assault rifles by definition are less powerful than battle rifles.

The FN 5.7X28 is about as powerful as a .22 Hornet -- which is much less powerful than the 5.56X45.
 
alright, lets start at the begining.

first of all;
Gun= any type of appratus that is designed to expel a projectile for the purpose of sending said projectile downrange. (potato gun, mouse gun, hand gun, long gun, etc..)

assult rifle = any rifle you want to paint with the term "assult" there is no real definition, same with "battle" rifle, any rifle used in a battle would qualify (which is nearly every rifle ever produced)

I think what you are asking is actually how does the stopping power of a pistol compare to the stopping power of a rifle.

one of the first rules of firearms stopping power, handguns are not rifles, and should not be used as a substitute.

a standard 9mm JHP round has adaqute stopping power if used correctly for most defensive shooting situitations.

5.7x28 or 7.62x54 or .223 or anyother rifle round .223 or larger will generally have more oomph than a pistol round (till you get into the big bore pistols calibers, some of them hit harder). if you look at a 9mm case and a .223 case you will notice that there is much more powder behind the .223, and that is the essence of rifle rounds, more punch behind the projectile.

do a google for "balistics table" and whatever rounds you are considering. understanding balistics can become very difficult very quickly, there are too many variables with your example.

hope this helps.
 
Does the long rifle cartridge do more then adding range?

Yes. Simply put, the longer case allows the use of much more powder than used in shorter handgun cartridges. The extra powder results in more projectile velocity. As you know (from your physics classes), greater velocity leads to a transfer of greater amounts of kinetic energy when the projectile hits something. Greater amounts of energy, generally, result in greater effects on the target.

A bit noobish question here: What would have the most stopping power of a gun vs a assault rifle or battle rifle? Say a 9 mm vs the 5.56 and the 7.62.

Yes... meaning no disrespect, but your newness shines through with that question :) See above for the simple answer which quickly drops the handgun 9mm cartridge out of the running. Then, when looking at the difference between 5.56mm and 7.62mm, you can remind yourself that the other part of the kinetic energy equation involves the weight of the projectile... and it is no great leap to surmise the 7.62mm projectile is the heavier of the two. Then you can compare the case sizes (the brass part) and see that the standard NATO 7.62 round has a much larger case than the 5.56 NATO round and is therefore capable of holding more powder.

I'm not an experienced shooter, just trying to understand gun fire.

Do yourself a favor and start your education here:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/index2.guns.htm

-
 
"This is my RIFLE, this is my GUN. One is for KILLING, one is for FUN."
As quoted, by a unnamed USMC Private.:D:D:D

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
 
A gun is towed or carried by a tracked or wheeled vehicle - artillery

57x28 has about 370 ftp-lbs at the muzzle
9mm, is about the same

5.56x45mm (223) is about 1300 ft-lbs at the muzzle

7.62x51mm (308) is aboout 2600 ft-lbs

A 223 rifle has more energy at 400 yards than the 9mm does at the muzzle
 
First of all, thanks all this helped a lot.

Guns: ok, I should have been a bit more clare but as it was stated:

"Yes... meaning no disrespect, but your newness shines through with that question"

No secret there :) Guess that shows I'm at the right place.



One follow-up question:
Mp5 9mm vs 9mm pistol - what is the difference? Stupid question or no, there it is ;)

Again thanks for taking the time to educate the new guy
 
the MP5 will get slightly more velocity because of the longer barrell, and by slightly I mean the difference can be discerned by measuring instuments, but the effect on target will be nearly identical.

Generally speaking the platform firing a cartridge doesn't have much effect on the terminal performance, unless there are LARGE differences in barrel length.
 
owen said:
Generally speaking the platform firing a cartridge doesn't have much effect on the terminal performance, unless there are LARGE differences in barrel length.

I think it's also fair to point out diminishing returns here. A 48" barrel will have appreciably LESS velocity with a standard 9mm round than an 8" barrel, which should have a bit more than one of 2"

That is if I know my physics, at all.
 
So an M16 and a Carbine M4 would be much the same as they both fires 5.56x45mm?

And what about Nato vs Russia?
The numbers I found:
Velocity weight Energy
7.62x51 840 m/s 146.6 gr 3362 j
7.62x39 710 m/s 123 gr 2010 j
5.56x45 940 m/s 62 gr 3085 j
5.56x39 900 m/s 3.25 gr 1316 j

All rifle rounds, but quite different, anyone got any imput on the actual difference? How much is theoretical difference as stated above;
"the difference can be discerned by measuring instuments, but the effect on target will be nearly identical". Is it so with any of these rounds as well?

If I just had a bunch of guns and some ballistic gel... ;)
 
those are all very different cartridges

A given cartridge will provide a similar performance regardless of platform. (unless there is a major barrel length difference)

The m4 has half the barrel length of the M16, so there is a bit of a performance difference there.
 
The 5.56mm (aka the .223) and the 7.62x51 (aka the .308) are vastly different, and designed for vastly different roles. [Edit: please nobody lecture me on interchangeability of military and civvy ammo - I'm just trying to simplify it for the noob]

The 5.56/.223 is an intermediate assault rifle cartridge, light and small enough to be carried in quantity. Generally, you shoot a bunch of them at whatever you want to kill until it falls down.

The 7.62x51/.308 is a full-sized battle rifle cartridge, used in sniper rifles. It's much larger, heavier and more powerful than the 5.56/.223.

Generally speaking, the "stopping power" of any given cartridge - rifle or handgun - has to do with 1) how large the bullet is and consequently how big of a hole it'll make in whatever you shoot it into; and 2) how big the shell casing is - which determines how much gunpowder it can hold - and consequently, how fast it can propel the bullet out of the barrel.

Handgun and rifle rounds are apples and oranges. Handguns don't even begin to compare to rifles in terms of power.

If you've got any instant-messenger programs, shoot me a PM with your screenname(s) and maybe I can try to explain the basics in real-time :)
 
If you understand the physics of 1/2 MV2 (as you seem to above)--really, you've answered your own question. Kinetic energy is the easiest yardstick to compare the performance of different types of ammo.

Factors such as barrel length come into play also--and can cause varriations in performance at the extremes of the spectrum. For example, a snubbed-nose revolver firing a 9mm bullet will provide significantly less energy than a longer barreled pistol or SMG, and a 9mm carbine will likely maximize the energy that the round can achieve.

Published data by ammo makers usually will state what length of test barrel was used.

And yes, the 'shorty' M-4 delivers less energy than the m-16A2--this was a factor (or so it has been said) in the USMC retaining the longer rifle.
 
I'm going to be a dissenting voice here and suggest that it's going to depend heavily on the bullet rather than the cartridge or platform, and further, that kinetic energy is may <i>not</i> be the best number to predict target performance.

Now, I am not certain <i>why</i> bullets stop people, or how they do so. I'm sure the cause varies depending upon the type of projectile. I have heard of two possible causes:
1) Blood loss
2) Impact force (hydrostatic shock or whatever you wish to term it)

In the first case, we find that we wish to make the biggest hole possible. I don't know if, presuming the projectile penetrates enough, we want to maximize hole cross-sectional area or hole diameter - I don't know enough about biology to know which ends up being more important. It's not important in the case of a single penetrator anyways...
Anyways, this means that a (say) 9mm handgun with hollow points that expands to (say) .63" and cause a permenant cavity (hole) with a diameter of (say) .5" will be more effective than a 50 BMG with FMJ ammunition that stays at a constant .51" and makes a (say) .25" hole, despite the .50 BMG projectile being:
More massive
Faster
More energetic
Having more momentum
Bigger (initially)

In the second case, I suspect we are most interested in the amount of energy transfered to the target... I do not know this for certain, but I suspect that the 9mm may beat the 50 BMG again, simply by virtue of being designed to stop in 12".

That covered, I'd like to explain why I feel that momentum (transfer) may be a better predictor of projectile performance than energy (transfer).

1) Presuming that the "stopping power" (and certainly the majority of "killing power") of a projectile is due to the size of hole it makes. (which, at the very least, seems to be the most common thought among pistol people.)

2) That the penetration of a projectile into tissue can be approximated by a algorithm I wrote to calculate the 'penetration' of a projectile fired upwards into the air.
This sounds outrageous, but considering that a bullet experiences two forces:
a) The hydrodynamic drag, which I believe is proportional to speed squared... the same as in air.
b) The force required to tear the tissue, which I expect to be constant regardless of the velocity of the projectile... and is thus analogous to the modeling of gravity in my algorithm.

Given these, I have prepared a table of "penetration distances" for projectiles upwards into the air. The first column is the velocity of a round, the second the penetration of that round, the third (in parenthases) the penetration of a round with the same kinetic energy but 1/4th the mass, and the fourth (in brackets) the penetration of a round with the same momentum but 1/2 the mass (and thus twice the kinetic energy).

050 - 59 (41) [67]
100 - 108 (54) [96]
150 - 140 (62) [112]
200 - 165 (68) [124]
250 - 182 (72) [133]
300 - 197 (75) [140]

I feel that this demonstrates that momentum is a better predictor of penetration - and maybe 'stopping power' than kinetic energy, given the same amount of projectile expansion and same drag coefficient of the expanded projectile.

I note that this argument falls apart if it turns out that the "tearing force" of the flesh is a lot more important that the hydrodynamic drag. Indeed, if this is the case, we find that energy is the proper indicator.
However, looking at some tests in ballistics jell, this doesn't seem to be the case.
 
Actualy while general helpful, the size especialy as demonstrated by that picture above of various rounds can be misleading.

Lets take the .45 ACP vs the 10mm (not pictured). The 10mm is a smaller cartridge, with a smaller bullet, and smaller brass. However the foot pounds of energy delivered by that 10mm load is greater, around 650 foot pounds average. The larger .45 ACP averages around 500 foot pounds.
This is because the .45 must remain at much lower operating pressures than the 10mm.

However simply measuring weighing and comparing the 2 one would assume the .45 was more powerful not knowing any better.

There is also other factors besides power. The harder a bullet the more it will penetrate, the softer the less it will. Shape also changes this. A sharpened point round of the same material will go much deeper than a hollowpoint which is acts like a cup forcing expansion increasing resistance and surface area and slowing it more rapidly (and transfering its energy.)

Then take Owen's order 5.7x28 < 9mm < 5.56 < 7.62.
The 5.7.28 will go through things that stop the 9mm cold, yet both have similar power and the 9mm can do more damage.
This is because even if you took 2 rounds of the same foot pounds, and same shape and material, the one with a smaller frontal surface area will be applying those pounds to a smaller area on the target. The same principle that makes the point of a knife cut through something with a small amount of force that it would take a hammer with a lot of force to go through. The material delivering the energy also matters, however that is complex enough to warrants its on page.
So even though the 5.7x28 and 9mm deliver similar foot pounds of energy, the smaller diameter round delivers it to a smaller surface area. So which is ideal or more "powerful" depends on what its intended use is. Since both would penetrate deeper than necessary on an unarmored human torso the wider of the 2 would do more effective damage, so the 9mm. Yet if soft body armor was in the way like on most battlefields the 5.7x28 would actualy still do some damage while the 9mm would do none.


Also you mentioned the M4 equal to the M16 based on someone's comment. In fact the M4 at medium ranges loses so much energy compared to the M16 that the military round is not fragmenting as it is designed at those lower velocities and its effectiveness is therefore much lower at stopping enemies in the field having only one wound track instead of 2-3. This has been a problem in Iraq/Afghanistan.

So general statements that one barrel size makes little difference, or that one does make a difference is over simplified and not accurate. It depends on the powder type and the round. There is a range of rapidly increased velocity, then there is a range of gradualy increased velocity, and then it can reach a point of velocity loss. One often wants to stay over the rapidly increasing velocity, while stopping short of making full use of the gradual range so as to keep a realistic barrel length.
However it is the powder type and pressure limitations of the firearm which determine how much space is necessary to enter into each range. Generaly speaking pistol and shotgun powders are fast and the rapid increase range is met fairly quickly in them. However rifle powder burns slower to still reach a great velocity while staying within the pressure limitations of the firearm.

Think explosion. If the explosion is very fast the pressure spike is fast, and what is surrounding the explosion has the force applied rapidly, but then no more. If the explosion is a bit slower then force is still being created as the bullet is heading down the barrel. Since the firearm and cartridge can only take so much pressure before exploding themselves, one must remain below that pressure so one reaches maximum velocity with a given barrel length by applying power to the bullet as long as it is in the firearm rather than all at once. One wants to keep the internal pressure close to (while safely under) maximum pressure as long as the bullet is in the barrel. With a short barrel like a pistol that means you get the most from faster. With a longer barrel like a rifle you can get more from slower.

Since manufactered ammo for a given chamber is designed originaly for a specific length barrel in a given firearm, it tends to be optimum around that range. This mean taking a rifle round and using it out of a chopped down barrel will on average greatly decrease the performance.

So there is no simple answer. Higher foot pounds does not mean better performance across the board, bigger caliber does not necessarily mean higher foot pounds, and more case capacity does not always mean faster velocity. These are general concepts that can give one a rough idea, but one needs to know a particular round to be sure. For example: A smaller case capacity in a firearm designed for much higher pressures could use a more powerful powder and actualy propel a bullet to a higher velocity than one with slightly larger case capacity that had to remain and operate at lower pressures.

So the ideal cartridge is one that is as wide as possible while still going the necessary depth into a particular target from a particular distance, expansion is a way of artificialy increasing the diameter of a round. The distance is important because some projectiles keep thier energy better over longer range, while others would have greater terminal performance at closer ranges but would have lost too much energy at longer ranges. Ballistic coeffecient determines this.

The limiting factors are however the recoil and the cartridge size and firearm design. Wider rounds in a pistol with rounds within the grip for example would decrease capacity. A more powerful round round for round may do more damage, but take several seconds between rounds to aim once more, while a less powerful round can allow one to deliver more total energy in the same time span. The total depth and amount of area damaged in a given time span is important too. If the target is a human, humans are only so deep. So after so many inches of penetration you want the energy to be delivered in increased surface area rather than additional penetration. A bear requires more, an elephant even more penetration before your concern is surface area. A person behind objects does likewise.

So different rounds are better for different situations and different targets.
 
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generally, rifles have considerably more power due to the longer barrels. the longer a barrel (up to a point), the longer the bullet undergoes acceleration.

check out the "box of truth" videos to get an idea of the differences:
click here

there are many other variables though, as the folks have already pointed out.
 
Not to be picky but all of the iNput here is some of the best you could find, some of the greatest minds in the world of firearms post here. If you have any question at all these people will and can help giving you the more accurate information on the web. And as phaed said the box o truth will give you a great idea as to what the different cartridges will and can do.
 
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