Guns and EMS.

[Firespecialist]

Few questions for you all. Tonight we went over concealed guns on medical scenes. We were told if possible, to remove the gun from the person and preferably hand it over to the LEO. I can see this if the person is unconscious and no other relative is available. Our local hospital states there are to be no weapons on premises. My question was about conscious persons. They claimed to remove the gun which I do agree with but I think there could potentially be some problems with this. My reasons were turning a person hostile and the legalities without LEO being on scene. I feel a person that conceal carries is not one that is going to easily give their gun up if you were to reach for it, especially with a decreased level of consciousness (I wouldn't blame the person for this either for this is what they were trained to do).

If you were in a medical situation, would you give your gun up to EMS (including firefighters, first responders), have the gun given to a relative, or ask for an LEO if a relative was unavailable? How would you handle a situation if EMS reached for your gun to remove it? What are the laws concerning EMS removing and handling a gun, whether it's Missouri or another state? These were some of the questions that came up that more less became curiosity after wards.

 

[Oyeboten]

If I was conscious, I would require a Receipt with the EMS or LEO person's name clearly printed and signed and time-dated, and having their company or other contact info printed also...or...no dice.

Of course, they could put fake info and it'd be hard for me to tell unless I demanded their ID also.

Definitely could be awkward.


I would not trust handing it over to any LEO or EMS otherwise.

Probably just no good solutions for this one.

 

[kingpin008]

If you were in a medical situation, would you give your gun up to EMS (including firefighters, first responders), have the gun given to a relative, or ask for an LEO if a relative was unavailable?

If I were able, I would surrender it to whatever authority figure was available, and try to get a reciept for it.

How would you handle a situation if EMS reached for your gun to remove it?

Once again - if I was in good enough shape to remove it and make it safe, I'd do it for them, then hand it over. I've been in situations where paramedics have been caring for me, and I'm not about to quibble about keeping my gun if I'm hurt bad enough to need EMS help.

What are the laws concerning EMS removing and handling a gun, whether it's Missouri or another state?

No idea, although I'm curious to see what response this gets. My brother-in-law is a paramedic.

 

[alohachris]

Good question. But, how hurt am I? Broken leg? Asthma attack? No need to take my weapon. I'll just give it to my wife along with my wallet, cellphone & cash. I wouldn't appreciate anyone telling me I "have to" surrender it.

Now, If I had a severe head injury with a change in LOC or I'm having a STEMI and need a large dose of morphine, I would understand removing my ccw from my control but there's no reason it can't be left holstered and locked up with the rest of my personal effects.

 

[Firespecialist]

The hospital does not allow weapons on premises at all. I don't think they even have a safe for personal items (small community, small hospital).

Let me add this. What if you were told to surrender your weapon or surrender your care? How would you take that? Stranger things have happened before....

 

[W.E.G.]

I worked on a volunteer ambulance crew for a couple years.

Our policy was to lay back until the scene was safe.
Always the judgment call of the chief officer of the ambulance.

I never had to go on a call where a patient had a CCW.
Plenty of explosive bowels and copious vomiting calls though.

Had there been a need to secure a weapon, I think I would have handled it in an effective and professional manner.
Some other members of the crew, maybe not so much.

 

[JD0608]

I`ve been a paramedic for years and so far the only guns i`ve had to remove were from bad guys and they were too injured too object. the ems system i work for is run by a hospital and the only policy for handguns on a ambulance is that the paramedics are not allowed to carry on the ambulance or in the hospital which sucks because we had a paramedic shot in the chest last year. she lived but is no longer working. the unit was called to a house for a guy having chest pain. the patient was a older guy in a wheel chair and when the medic leaned down to talk to him he pulled a 25 acp out and shot her in the chest. his excuse was (he didn`t know what she going to do and he was scared) he was just a crazy old man. i have had my ambulance hit by gunfire several times in the last 16 years as a medic and have been shot at a couple of times. had a bullet go through the collar of my shirt one time. so i guess i would rather not have my patients carry guns.

 

[Firespecialist]

W.E.G., did you have a protocol in place to handle a CCW? We don't have any that we know of.

I think you and I are on the same page of handling it in an effective and professional manner, but my bets are that not everyone in the fire/EMS departments are not nearly understanding (read: anti-gun) as we would be. I just like knowing how the "other party" would respond in a situation like this.

 

[fireman 9731]

Don't touch it and leave it where it is. Most of the time they are in a good holster and will stay there. If it is a threat for some reason then have law enforcement take care of it, but its not your problem.

If they are unconscious and a family member or friend is around, I would ask them if they wanted it before leaving the scene.

Luckily, I know most of the people in my district and they know me, so it hasn't been a problem yet.

But no matter what you do, KEEP TRACK OF IT!

 

[Firespecialist]

JD0608, it is unfortunate to hear about your co-worker. One of my good friends works as a paramedic in a high crime rate city. His attitude is pull back, all guns are bad. He is pro-gun, but when he runs into guns on a call, usually they aren't legally owned. His department also issues bullet-proof vests.

Another note, even though it is not specified, we do think knowingly a gun can not be on an ambulance. Even though another paramedic I talked to has a CCW, he wouldn't feel comfortable being in control of a patients gun for various reasons (familiarization to legal).

 

[A2lockdown]

here we go....

speaking from an EMT point of view: you are absolutly right about turning a person hostile! your response depends on the legal situation/protocol where you are and your training level, NOT the most popular choice by public opinion. Tactical medics are trained to disarm wounded police officers specifically because of the high potential for friendly fire, so its reasonable to believe a less trained civilian is more dangerous to everyone. on the street i dont go near anyone with a gun regardless of the situation, pull back and let the LEO's deal with it (that is our official policy). if you are in a situation where you have to secure a weapon, hand it over to LEO asap, NEVER family members!!!

alohachris: hypoxemia from asthma, blood loss from a broken leg, and just about any condition you need EMS for has the potential to cause severe LOC changes, making you and any other patient (or stressed family member, for that matter) dangerous. you dont get to make those decisions if you want help, cause we dont risk our lives taking orders from armed patients. dont get into medical discussions if you clearly dont know what you are talking about.

for any ccw civilians reading this, immediatly offer to hand it over but do NOT reach for it. some medics do carry, especially the ones who have been shot at. most will simply lock it up with your stuff or turn it over to police. its really not worth the confrontation.

 

[JustinL]

Many years ago I was a volunteer EMT-Basic back in Virginia. Even though concealed carry had already been adopted I do not recall encountering an armed patient. In fact, I never recall the topic even coming up for conversation. Don't know what I would have done.

 

[gfpd707]

Being a firefighter/emt I would never remove someones gun unless they are acting irrationaly and not aware of the situation. I don't have to worry about this though because I live in the communist state of illinois.

 

[ultradoc]

There are several people at my church who c.c. I told them that if anything should happen to me at church they should secure my gun.

 

[44Dave]

In my state we are required to surrender our firearms to an EMS if receiving treatment. LEO is preferable of course.

 

[Dirkofthedesert]

I don't know the answer, and am not going to pretend I do. However, I really can't see how being injured would somehow lessen one's rights lawfully obtained. Nor can I really see how a holstered weapon truly poses a risk unless a person is not in full possession of their faculties. If that were the case it would seem prudent to leave the issue to be resolved by law enforcement who are most likely better trained to deal with the issue. (The classic rules, scene safety and never become part of the problem.) I have noticed that many states which issue carrying permits or allow open carry without a permit really do not have laws which address the issue of when you must surrender your gun and to whom. Personally, I have never felt the least threatened by someone lawfully carrying a holstered gun. In fact, truth be known, It actually makes me proud. I like to see people taking responsibility for their own safety and that of others around them. None of this helps, and I realize that and also understand EMTs work in stressful environments and that not all share my comfort level. For what it's worth I did ask some friends, and everyone, to a person said they would respond favorably to "Sir, I would like to secure your weapon for you, it is distracting and will most likely be in the way here." As far as reciepts and such most felt that if they were really in need of emergency medical care they wouldn't care. They have the serial numbers at home if it needs to be reported stolen and quite frankly the cost of a new gun just doesn't weigh up next to possibly not being given treatment for a potentially life threatening injury. Pure opinion on my part for what little it is worth.

 

[divemedic]

OK: 20 years in EMS, all in southern, gun owning states. Paramedic instructor, supervisor, and safety officer.

First, the rules:

If the patient does not show any signs of altered mental status: patient does not, under any circumstances get transported to the hospital with a weapon. If he refuses to give up the weapon to someone else, he is effectively refusing transport to the hospital. (yes, cops included)

If the patient does show signs of altered mental status: He is disarmed, and the weapon given to police. (cops too)

Now, the reality: If you are not altered, have a CCW, and are behaving yourself, many paramedics will overlook the fact that you have a weapon, or just fail to notice it. Act like a jerk, get treated like a jerk. I have even met people in the middle in cases where we had to take a patient's clothes off, and put the weapon in the patient's gym bag, and transported that with the patient.

If there is a chance that you will become altered, I will not allow you to take a weapon. Am I being anti-gun to say that? No. Why?

- what if I want to give pain killers? Do you want to be stoned with a weapon?
-What if you have a brain injury or some other medical condition that will cause you to act irrationally? Do you want to be combative and out of your head while armed, and find out that you shot a Doctor while out of it?

Remember that a large number of medical problems will result in you being incapable of making rational decisions. I have seen cops injured in car accidents try to draw their sidearm when they get in to that "fight or flight" response.

 

[Firespecialist]

Thanks for all the answers! I feel I would be safer with a CCW. Knowing they paid for the license and took the training to carry makes me feel safe because they are using their right lawfully (in some instances). The altered level of consciousness is what would make me nervous. You just never know. I have been on for about 5 years and this has never been brought up before. Now that it has, it is a gray area for us. I figured it would have been an interesting subject because it is something that we, both EMS and CCW's, think about because we don't like thinking about ourselves being in that position.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

How would you handle a situation if EMS reached for your gun to remove it?

If the person is conscious and not irrational I'd advise explaining to them that the weapon needs to be secured before you can give treatment and to please make it safe and hand it over to a relative or LEO (and the LEO needs to give them a receipt with a signature and serial number of the gun), rather than just reaching for it. If someone just went for my gun with no heads-up the natural reaction is to reach back and anchor it to the holster which may result in me needing treatment for a gunshot wound as well from a responding LEO.

 

[skidooman]

I was just going to say what DTDrew said. If you just go reaching for peoples weapon, the scene could turn into something much worse that it should be. If able to I would prefer giving it to a relative, but if none available I would hand it over to LEO if required, but requesting a receipt.

 

[NOLAEMT]

How we do it in the Big Easy

My first post, so I'm sorry if I'm butting in, but i've been doing ems for a little while now, and I've had it come up several times. and although I've very pro-gun, etc. (obviously or i wouldn't be here) We do disarm EVERYONE that sets foot in the back of the truck.

If you have a firearm, that is fine, you can leave it in your car, house, give it to a relative, etc. If you prefer I can also secure your weapon in an outside compartment, and give it to hospital security when we get to the hospital (state law: no guns in the hospital), who will hold it in their safe until your departure from the hospital. Like others have said this also applies to police patients, conscious or not. If you dont want to give up your gun, I will politely inform you that I cannot allow you into my ambulance with the firearm, and that if you would like to refuse care, you can sign on the dotted line, and we will be on our way.

Even police that are transporting with us in the back of the truck go weaponless unless the pt is in hard restraints (handcuffs). often we will have a police officer transport with us when we have violent pt's or ones we are unsure of, and unless the pt is under arrest and in handcuffs, the police officer must leave their gun. Either in an outside compartment of the ambulance, or more often, their partner will hold onto it while they follow us to the hospital in their police car.

its nothing personal on the part of the EMT's, the police are allowed to carry their OC, tazer, baton, etc. just no firearms. having a gun fight in the back of a moving ambulance would be akin to having a knife fight in a moving phone booth. It would be almost impossible to observe the 4 rules, as you would almost certainly have to sweep me or my partner on the draw, and even a "lowly" 9mm will penetrate the thin aluminum body of our rig, and who knows who is driving 3 ft on the other side.

We train our people to NEVER try to clear a found weapon, if we are still on scene we will have PD do it, and if I find one during my physical exam while we are in route (think unconscious pt) , I will put it probably in its holster, into a plastic bag.

fyi: if you are in a wreck or something and are unconscious, when you wake up don't be surprised if your gun belt, or holster is now in several pieces, sorry! along with your jacket, shirt, pants, etc. we needed to remove your clothes to make sure you didn't have any injuries we couldn't see.

sorry for the long post, but i'm bored and talkative,

 

[Zach S]

I've asked a few medics about this... Rather than referring to an official policy, they said they would use their judgment based on the circumstances. We went through a few "what ifs" and I think most of us would agree that the action taken would be reasonable. I cant remember specifics, so please done ask.

They also said to keep in mind that they are shooters and have CHPs themselves - not all EMTs do...

having a gun fight in the back of a moving ambulance would be akin to having a knife fight in a moving phone booth.

lmao!

 

[Cosmoline]

Well if they take the firearm(s) off of me they'd better take good care of them and lock them up. Handing them to the nearest stranger who says he's my relative isn't going to cut it. Anymore than handing my wallet and cash to someone would be.

If I'm conscious enough to care I can wait for a cab or bum a ride into town. Ambulances are outrageously expensive anyway.

 

[NOLAEMT]

Well if they take the firearm(s) off of me they'd better take good care of them and lock them up. Handing them to the nearest stranger who says he's my relative isn't going to cut it. Anymore than handing my wallet and cash to someone would be.

If I'm conscious enough to care I can wait for a cab or bum a ride into town. Ambulances are outrageously expensive anyway.

I can assure you that at least where I work, the safety of pt's belongings is taken very seriously. We wont give them to anyone without your direct say so, and frankly I'm not going to TAKE anything from a conscious, alert and oriented patient, i may ASK that you let me see your ID/insurance card, medicine bottles, etc. but if you say no, and still want to go to the hospital that is fine (with the exception of firearms, if you don't want to disarm, that is fine, but I can't let you in the truck). In Louisiana, you cant CCW into a hospital, so that's one reason patients are required to disarm before arrival. In this case I will personally take your gun, or other valuable, still in the plastic bag i put it in before, label it with your name, and ssn or Birthday, and probably a patient information sticker from the hospital, and it will actually go into a gun safe guarded by armed hospital security, along with other pts valuables (jewlery, watches, wallets, etc). when you are discharged you present ID to these security guards and they will retrieve your bag from the safe.

I agree with you about the last part, Most people who activate EMS don't need us. if you can get a cab to the hospital you're probably better off. people think that they will get seen sooner if they come into the ER on our stretcher, but thats just not true. I've taken plenty of patients to the ER for BS complaints and had the hospital send them to the waiting room with everyone else. The people who do need EMS are happy to have us though and if it is necessary for ems to transport you, most insurance will pick up the bill.

 

[mgmorden]

I've taken plenty of patients to the ER for BS complaints and had the hospital send them to the waiting room with everyone else.

Off topic, but this in and of itself is annoying. I had an issue at work a while back. Was talking to a coworker and got light headed and passed out. When I came to, I got a glass of water, recouped myself, and tried to continue with my day. 5 minutes later I was out again. When I came to they had called the ambulance. My fingernails had turned blue, my breath was short, and I was so dizzy and lightheaded I was barely coherent.

Vitals checked out though, so I went ahead and had a friend drive me to the ER instead of taking the ambulance. When I got to the ER I had to deal with a rude check in clerk who was almost yelling at me for information (and at the time I was simply not focused enough to really be filling out forms or answering questions, though I did make it through it), and then had to wait 30 minutes before a doctor would see me. I ended up checking out ok (though they STILL haven't been able to tell me what happened - hasn't happened again in 3-4 years though), but I think I'd have been SOL had I been really in trouble.