Guns and stuff made in China

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"Free markets lead to free minds." Very True.

But I can't seem to get out of my head that China sees its free markets as a nessary evil to generate revene to feed its evil government and its military. I could be wrong, I hope I'm wrong.

Their growing middle class might be what saves them and us though. The lower class usaully does what it is told, the upper class want things to stay the same, history teaches. But the middle class made up of thinking professionals has power and they know it. If the U.S. loses our middle class we lose the country, we be come serfs and a ruling elite. If China gains a sizable middle class they may save us a war.

That being said I try not to by Chinese products, but that becomes harder every day.
 
i guess we can only hope that the chinese people get enough money and anger to change their own govt. in that sense giving their laborers some income isnt too bad.
i still avoid chinese goods though. i wont even enter a wally world, they want to turn the US into china
 
Well I just wish I could figure out if it's actually better to buy chinese or boycott them. There seems to be opinions both ways, and I still don't know which I should do.

It's so messy.
 
By buying chinese we keep them out of an iron curtain mode...sort of.

Besides, were probably doing more for the chinese people then we do for the govt- we keep their govt going we keep them out of even worse sorts of conditions.
 
China today is no more a Communist state than California is.
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This statement is wildly incorrect. China through it's recent growth spurt and massive public relations machine has done a good job of polishing up the exterior a bit. Sorry, the old guard still stands strong. So long as everyone is doing their job, paying the gov, and not stirring up things - your ok. Don't go into the main square and start picketing and making speeches for freedom and liberty. Don't try to browse the internet and read any of the thousands of subjects and areas banned by the government.

Just look at how serious recently they reacted to Falun Gong members. That's a threat??? No, just a little reminder who is behind the curtain...

Things are opening up, sure especially for anything foreign money coming in will be given special treatment. It's that "2 systems, 1 country" BS. Believe it you might, but then you might be closing your eyes to a system of corruption that many don't talk about, for good reasons.

Some of those goods you're buying comes from operations run by the PLA. Think about that one a little...
 
It's nice to see that people are still willing to opine on subjects that they know nothing about. :rolleyes:

All this time, I thought that Amnesty International had been discredited as a source. I suppose anyone who supports our preconceived notions can be an ally of convienience, right?

I repeat - China is a substantally freer market than many places in the United States. I would strongly suggest some reading on this subject, perhaps even a visit to China, or at least talking with some people who have been there.

- Chris
 
I think the point Chris Rhines was making is that China's communism is becoming replaced by a more capitalistic approach.
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OK, maybe I jumped on him a bit, but he included the statement equivocating Waco and Tianenmen Square quoted in his post.


Technically, Kurush, communism as a political-economic philosophy does not include torture, execution or any of the other things you mention. These were added in by the totalitarians that controlled the major communist countries of the 20th century.

Torture was not even mentioned in the Communist Manifesto.
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I completely reject the idea that you can sever communism and totalitarianism. If I buy a plot of land in Florida, and the sales brochure doesn't mention the swamp, does that mean it's "technically" not a swamp? In other words, the question is whether communism is defined by Marx's fanciful claims of a workers paradise, or is it defined by what has resulted from every single attempt to implement a communist state?

Off hand (I may have missed a couple), the communist states (excluding Soviet satellite states) are/were the USSR, Communist China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba, Yugoslavia, and Albania. What do these states have in common? Autocratic rule, suppression of free speech, death squads, poverty, and corruption.

If you build a house from plans six times in six different places, and every time it collapses, it is fair to say that your blueprints are for a heap of rubble rather than for a house.
 
I'm losing my job because we're being closed, and alot of my line of work has been outsourced to India, so it's very likely I will not be able to find work.
Scores of American workers have lost their jobs because the factories have shut down and moved to places like China. Those people, being unskilled laborers, may not be able to afford to find jobs that allow them to earn a living.
So I'm supposed to research China and soften my stance toward them while US workers continue to become unemployed?

I don't think so.
 
Intersting commentary so far, but maybe I missed the part about trade agreements, and NAFTA, and tax incentives to US businesses, and all those other things that are sucking our middle class down the toilet . ( IMO )

Under the BS that a globel economy is somehow good for us , these last couple decades our government has been selling off our prosperity to whoever is in the market. Who gains here in the US is our big business's who now have an unempided source of cheap labor , and a place to manufacture goods with less regulation on pollution

Did anybody seriously think that a "globel" economy was going to make our lives better ? We had arguably the best standard of living on the planet. (and may still be hanging in there in some places), so what did we have to gain from compeating with the rest of the world ? Was there ever any doubt that bringing up the standard of living for countries like China on our dollar had the potential of taking something away from us ?

Are products cheaper to the consumer when they can be built so much cheaper outside the US ? Sure , in a lot of cases they are. Does that help us ? In the short term it may save us some money, but if you don't have a job, that won't make much difference will it ?

I'm not mad at China . They were handed the oppertunity on a platter by our big business and our government. Their simply taking what has been given to them .
 
I'll buy american when given the opportunity if the product is comparable--I'd never consider an import mini-van or full-size truck, for example. The american versions are top notch. However, if I'm looking at a hybrid or even a sub-compact sedan, the imports are (imo) of a higher quality to make that a consideration. But would still not buy from/support a country that is contrary to my beliefs--especially one that is likely to be a threat to us economically or politically, not to mention militarily.

Now, an M14 for $399 Canadian looks pretty good--even if it was made in China. But, we can't buy those...wait, who's oppressed again?

PS Yeah, what happened at waco isn't so bad when compared to what happens in China and what Stalin and Hitler did--but is that really the standard we want to judge are government against? At what point to we become subjects and no longer citizens?
 
I buy the better product, period. Just because it might be American, doesn't automatically mean it's on equal footing or superior to a product made outside the US of A. Every company, no matter country of origin, is equally capable of putting out a piece of junk product.

If I'm going to pay a premium for a US-made product based solely on the fact it is US-made, it better be equal or superior to it's foreign competitors. I will not pay more money for an inferior product. I don't see why I should pay more for a product when that company refuses to equal or best their competitors.
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+1. I'm not big on buying American because it is American. In those instances where the American product is better, I'll buy it. If the German, or Swedish, or Cuban, or Brazilian, or Russian, or Indian, or Chinese product is better, I'll buy it.
 
The great thing about capitalism is that nobody has to get angry just wealthy enough to buy their way out (in effect). This is what's happening in China. Their tail-wagging-the-dog talk about Taiwan is an example of a desperate attempt by some old-timers to retain some semblance of control as the young neo-capitalist factions take over.

Still, China as an economic power IS a threat economically and politically to the the US. Their future economic strength will destroy us eventually and lead to our political system's destruction. Will take some time, but I think it is inevitable.

zai jian.
 
I think that the blame is partly on those Us companies that inflate thier prices and then advertize that they are made in america. American good dont HAVE to cost twice as much, but they just DO. Colt and Smith Guns cost twice as much as some of thier competition. I don't know why, but it is not solely because they are American made. Just look at Keltec these often bashed guns are at least made in America, and they can compete pricewise with the least expensive import guns. Much of the reason is that they use modern manufacturing techniques, unlike some of thier pricier competition who still rely on hundred year old hand making teqniques.

My main point is that I believe American companies should be able to compete better with oversees good, price wise, but they just chose not to.

In a "free market," that is just shooting yourself in the foot.
 
I'd never consider an import mini-van or full-size truck, for example. The american versions are top notch.
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I'll have to agree with that. American car companies have been building and refining real off-road duty trucks and SUVs longer than any other car company. Every single person on my street that owns a worktruck has a Dodge, Chevrolet, or Ford. The new Honda truck just makes me question their marketing. I haven't seen one Ridgeline on the road yet.

The only imported truck I'd consider is a Toyota since they have a very good track record for reliability and durability but they only make compacts. I'll stay away from the Porsche and BMW SUVs. I'd even stay away from Cadillac and Lincoln trucks since thats not even close to what their heritage is. I find it all crazy but I suppose the demand is great enough that everyone is jumping in for a market share.
 
It's nice to see that people are still willing to opine on subjects that they know nothing about.
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Please, you're wounding my self-esteem. :(
All this time, I thought that Amnesty International had been discredited as a source. I suppose anyone who supports our preconceived notions can be an ally of convienience, right?
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What nonsense. Amnesty International is an extremely credible organization that has extensively documented human rights abuses worldwide for more than 40 years. Now suddenly they're "discredited" not because they actually made a false statement but because they engaged in hyperbole. :rolleyes: Are you actually disputing my assertion that China sends people to reeducation facilities and tortures them until they accept whatever belief they are told to, or did you just want to take a cheap shot at AI?
I repeat - China is a substantally freer market than many places in the United States.
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Again, ridiculous. In actual fact virtually every large company in mainland China is majority-owned or otherwise controlled by the government. For example Norinco is controlled by COSTIND, CNOOC is 70% owned by the government, Global China Group Holdings Limited is controlled by a CPPCC member, the big four banks are state-owned, and even Lenovo is 43.2% owned by the government. China's entry into the WTO gave it certain obligations respecting business practices and laws, but China has yet to implement most of them. What's more, even under the WTO agreement China can continue to restrict foreign ownership in a wide range of industries. Corruption is still rampant (although they are cracking down), and low-level bureaucrats have a great deal of arbitrary power. If you want to argue that China is more capitalist than it used to be, fine, but comparing China unfavorably to California is ridiculous.
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Lol it really is funny now, people are saying the same things those bandana-wearing hippies in Seattle were spouting years ago! Come on, you have to admit there is some irony. They were saying that Globalization was bad, we all blew them off and laughed when they huffed on tear gas - now globalization isn't theoretically exploiting poor countries, but bankrupting America!

If you want some good advice, don't trust the banks. Argentina was infiltrated by the international bankers, they got law after law passed in their favor. Then when things didn't go their way they punished the country by taking all the money away. Literally - columns of armoured cars drove trillions of dollars out in one evening. Next day the banks just didn't open, and Argentina became very very poor again. And what the banks did was legal, because they had gotten laws passed to let them do it.

Sorry, back OT, so the moral of the story is buy the best value, no matter where it's from. Save your money, because if your last name aint' Rothschild you're going to need it. And a rifle is a good investment because if the banks decide to punish America by destroying the dollar, the rifle will still have inherent value.
 
Capitalism is not perfect. Capitalism does not a Democracy or Republic make. It may provide a fertile soil for those institutions to grow but then again it might not happen that way. It is not some proto-moral code some are making it out to be. China's embrace of capitalism does not make their government a force for good in the world as it does not necessarily make us good. Capitalism makes money in the most efficent way that we know so far, thats it. With competition there will be losers and winners. Moving jobs to India or China might save a few bucks and be "capitalism in action" but that doesn't make it right.
 
I'll stay away from the Porsche and BMW SUVs. I'd even stay away from Cadillac and Lincoln trucks since thats not even close to what their heritage is. I find it all crazy but I suppose the demand is great enough that everyone is jumping in for a market share.
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The people buying those don't want an SUV, they want something luxirious that is bigger than a car.
 
and since China just de-linked their currency from the US Dollar, which held down the yuan articificially, they will be losing some competitive advantages, as prices for their stuff will go up - this should please the boycotters - I'll have to think on this one before deciding - I have a MAK90 but I bought that before I was even thinking politically, about 10 years ago. Can't say I blame the boycotters, inasmuch as China treats its people like ass, jail dissidents (and probaby tortures them as well), and is in fact soon to be a real military threat to this country - I'll ponder that before getting a Norinco 1911.
 
Buy American? What does America even make now a days? The consumer will decide what they want, and to compete you need a product people are willing to pay for. If you want people to buy American cars, then make a better product instead of trying to play the patriotism card because that is certainly not working. Have a problem with outsourcing our jobs? Well you have a problem with capitalism then don't you? Only the profitable survive and outsourcing certainly help profits. Besides that, don't forget that products are not being made only in China. Heck, even American cars are being made in Mexico.

Communism? Communism is not a threat any more. Last time I checked, the commies aren't exactly spreading the scourge it was. The only conflict I can ever see occuring between the US and China is the dispute over Taiwan. So what is the perceived threat here? Military? Last I checked there is no benefit for either country to invade each other and certainly neither can win that proposition. We are so economically tied to each other military conflict does not seem likely. Can it happen? Sure could. But over what?

Yeah, you're absolutly right that China has some major human right's problems but where is the public outcry over the genocide that was happening in Libya? Oh that's right there not politically important, so we can ignore all that. So what if the Chinese government owns many of the businesses in China? If the majority of the Chinese people had a problem with the government, they would have overthrown the government by now. The younger generation in China today are not the hardliners of yesterday. Given time, China will change once the younger generation takes charge. If anything a trade embargo will only create a more tense situation with China.

The economy is changing, there was a time when this country was an agrarian society. That was replaced by factories. Those factories have been replaced by the services. You might not like it, but this is inevitable. The only way to survive is to adapt not close up our doors. This is the exact reason why education has become increasingly important in our society, if you can't compete you won't survive; its a dog eat dog world we live in.

Now I'm going to get some angry responses now :cool:


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Not angy response : Looks like you got the party line pretty good from watching propaganda vision no doubt .

You might not like it, but this is inevitable. The only way to survive is to adapt not close up our doors. This is the exact reason why education has become increasingly important in our society, if you can't compete you won't survive; its a dog eat dog world we live in.
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The only thing that makes it "inevitable" is the greed of big business and the corruption of government.

That's why the working man is competing with economys where $1.00 an hour is a living wage. You don't need higher education to figure out we loose on that deal.
 
The greatest threat is not dealing with China.
Our two nations are deeply invested in each other and we need them as much as they need us. If American's would stay competitive, we wouldn't see jobs being exported. We have become fat and lazy

The opportunity here is not to keep them at arms length, but to embrace them and allow capitalism to do its job. Let the people sort their own affairs out.

I will continue to buy Chinese goods as long as they are of good quality and cost less than similar American goods.

If I could get a Norinco M-14, you can bet that I would and I would shoot it proudly right alongside far more expensive Springfield Armory M1A's.

The world is changing folks and we can't afford not to change with it. This anti-ChiCom ideal isn't helping anyone.
 
I disagree with the whole premise. Isolated, poor countries are a far bigger threat to us (e.g. N. Korea, Iran, the old Soviet Union and old China) than trading pardners that are approaching equal footing. Forty years ago people were saying the same thing about Japan. The pandora's box of freedom and capitolism has been opened in China. They will become MORE dependent on the US as they grow, and they will HAVE to establish better ties and develope better trading policies. The whole salve labor issue is overblown- the middle classes and upper classes are absolutely booming in China.
 
The US Army recently purchased 17,000 AK's from China.

If the US Army has no problem buying firearms from China, neither do I.
 
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