guns and teen suicide?

[jamz]

Feh. In the first salvo of the battle to keep guns in the house, and start a shooting hobby (or at least make it official), my wife has said that she doesn't want them in the house because if a person (especially a teen) wants to commit suicide, it is usually around 100% successful if attempted with a gun versus other methods.

Leaving aside the fact that my oldest kid is 4 years old, and has a while before teen angst sets in, and due to severe food allergies could commit suicide with a snickers bar if he wanted to, and the fact that neither of us have any suicidal tendancies, I wanted to intellegently address her fear.

I found this article. Linky here

The synopsis, basically, is this: "CONCLUSIONS. Ready availability of firearms is associated with an increased risk of suicide in the home. Owners of firearms should weigh their reasons for keeping a gun in the home against the possibility that it might someday be used in a suicide. "

My plan is to state that any weapons will never be "readily available". I would also point out that increased risk does not mean "will happen".

How would you folks argue this particular piece of research? Any help that leads me to having a gun safe at my house and a happy wife is much appreciated.

-James

 

[FPrice]

jamz...

Much of the "studies" of gun-related suicide seem to make the connection after the fact. For example, a person (generally male) decides they are going to commit suicide, goes out to buy a gun, and the resulting suicide is termed "gun-related". Yet, about as many (I forget the exact ratio) of people commit suicide by other means. And in other countries where gun ownership is severely limited (e.g., Japan) people manage to commit suicide, sometimes at greater rates, without having access to firearms.

Personally, I feel that a teen-ager can be made "suicide-proof" (as much as it possible) by one simple procedure. Being raised by a dedicated, loving SET of parents. Tell your wife that if you and her raise your child, and I mean really commit yourselves to raising your child with love and discipline and teach them without being hypocrits about your behavior, I think neither of you will have to worry about suicide.

 

[Smokey Joe]

Suicidal teens

Saw it on a bumper sticker: "Hey &*(*^%%, it's bad parenting, not guns!"

Don't like to put profanity on my bumper, but I think this sticker really has it nailed.

 

[HBK]

Just tell her that you're the king of the castle and it's your way our the highway.

 

[jamz]

HBK- hehe, that'll work, and I will certainly enjoy living in my car. ;p

FPrice: Amen to suicide-proofing your kid. We are good parents, and will not split up. The more involved you are, the better. Plus, we both have social work backgrounds, so it's not like we are unfamiliar with suicide ideation or indicators.

I think this study, however, had a definite guns in the house vs. guns not in the house control group.

-James

 

[Ryder]

Suicide has a strong genetic componant. I'm dead serious Everyone considers it. It's the lack of a gene which weakens your will to resist. Guns do not cause people to commit suicide.

Your teens are just as likely to OD on drugs or jump off a bridge if they are prone to suicide. As for the high degree of success compared to other methods. No more so than driving a car into a semi-truck head on. So what? Guns are no more evil than a car. Both are inanimate objects.

Edit.. Do your study in Japan or England where guns are not allowed. They have a higher rate of suicide yet don't use guns. What's that prove about the evil of guns?

 

[P95Carry]

My offspring flew the nest long ago ........ but with thinking cap on .....

I think you have to form a plan of gun security and make it be plainly seen as effective.

For instance ..... a safe, containing all (unloaded) guns not in use. Then, if you carry .. that piece is NEVER in other than your direct control - and when waking hours, always on body.

Maybe too ... keep ammo also secure ...... and if reloading, then locked door as well.

Hopefully as ''lil-one'' grows up ... give not only the parental love and security but also if spouse can accept .. early firearms training ... make it enjoyable, as well as instructive. Instill the four rules early.

Just some general thoughts from an ole phart!

 

[rick newland]

My youngest sister killed herself 12 years ago. She chose a car in the garage even though the house was full of guns.

 

[Ryder]

There are a lot of "reasons" not associated with guns. Check out this article.



EMF linked to suicide

 

[WvaBill]

Aceteminophen is about as effective...just takes 2-3-days to kill the liver. If your wifeis concerned about guns and suicide, you are lost. The time to intervene in a child's life is BEFORE a plan is developed. Asking people about suicidal ideation will NOT place ideas in their head(s) and will implicitly give them permission to discuss this with you later.

Check it out with your local mental health agency. The danger if you have a person in the house who has previously attempted suicide is much greater w/ or w/o firearms than noone w/ history of suicide if firearms are properly stored, safety taught, discussions held.

My argument, as a mental health professional, would be that to keep tools of suicide out of house is an excuse to not discuss serious issues. Kinda like not having condoms around to prevent teen sex.
"OK hon, I got rid of the guns, we better get rid of this cutlery and these household chems. Do you know how dangerous those aerosols/chemical cleaners are to a kid just trying to get high?"

Again, history of those with access is highly important. Talk about suicide with kids should be suicide in general, not related to guns/knives/ropes/poisons.

If you feel over out of your league, ask your physician for a consult.


I read the link after typing the above

IMHO, given the source and the methodology, the abstract sounds like a conclusion searching for research. Note that ALL suicides were researched. No mention on how many elderly and/or terminally ill people researchers could have matched to terminally ill people who didn't have guns...wasn't that the only demographic waiting periods affected statistically. While I don't recall a lot of the detailed statistics, the difference sounds pretty small. And the difference is still among those with tendencies toward suicide. It's hard to reach hard conclusions from an abstract, but the method seems to have been to match a suicide victim with a similar individual who did not commit suicide. They may be studying the same demographic groups, the only difference being the presence of a gun. If so, the results would have little import for the "general population"

Use stats, and critical thinking goes out the window.

"CONCLUSIONS. Ready availability of firearms is associated with an increased risk of suicide in the home. Owners of firearms should weigh their reasons for keeping a gun in the home against the possibility that it might someday be used in a suicide.

And readily availability of a motor vehicle is associated with an increased risk of a fatal MVA in the family. Owners of automobiles should weigh their reasons for not availing themselves of safer modes of transportation.

Sarcasm off:

If she doesn't want guns, what to do . If she fears this, a little more research on your part Just approach mental health professionals with scrutiny. Most are anti gun. I work with them. Concealed really means concealed.

As El Tejon has said MEGO.


edited to add: The argument should not be about securing the guns. You lose the terms of debate; you'll probably lose debate.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I have no doubt teen-agers who are familiar with firearms are much less likely to commit suicide than those who aren't; teen-agers who are unfamiliar with firearms may well be another matter.

 

[FPrice]

"Suicide in the home in relation to gun ownership
AL Kellermann, FP Rivara, G Somes, DT Reay, J Francisco, JG Banton, J Prodzinski, C Fligner, and BB Hackman"

The first name says it all. Kellerman seems to have made a career of "proving" that guns are bad.

If you look for a specific link, and confine your search to examples that "prove" this link, you will generally find it.

However, if Kellerman would expand his search to ALL homes which contain firearms, and measure that against suicides, then he might reach a different conclusion.

One bit of anecdotal evidence: I have owned guns for over 30 years and have no instances of suicide or attempted suicide in myself or anyone who has lived in my house. Teen-agers included.

 

[ChickenHawk]

FPrice's first post hits it right on.

I'd only add to it that any gun kept in a locked safe is pretty suicide-proof. Mine are not accessable to the kids and don't leave my sight (except the ccw ) when out of the safe.

Whether your kids ever learn the safe combination can be a joint decision with you and your wife when you think they're ready.

Cheers!
ChickenHawk

 

[jamz]

MEGO it is.

Thanks for the Kellerman heads-up, it may come in handy if she throws additional "research" at me.

Hell, I'm almost 40 and I still don't know the combo to my dad's safe.

This will be a long process, talking her into this. We'll see how it goes. Thanks again for all the ideas!

-James

 

[roscoe]

Buy a safe and don't tell anyone else the combination. Teach your kids to shoot, but not how to crack a safe.

 

[Apple a Day]

Things to ask your wife

1) Did people commit suicide before the invention of guns? Answer: YES
2) Do industrialized countries where people can't own guns have less per person suicides than the U.S.? Answer: NO, Japan has the dubious distinction of being #1. The U.S. is ranked 8th, under England, China, Russian, Australia, and Canada...

 

[clubsoda22]

Just about every suicide attempt i have been to where the person involved was a teenager has been through medication overdose. Maybe 1 has been through laceration. I have personally never been to a suicide where someone blew their head off, even if guns were available (one of the first questions we as is if there are guns in the house). Most people who want to check out early would prefer to down a bottle of sleep aids and expire quietly, most of them change their minds or are found before accomplishing that.

Of those who do commit suicide with firearms, if the guns were not available they would definately find another way and succeed. People who shoot themselves are generally not crying for help as much as they are dead serious about ending their lives.

 

[LynnMassGuy]

Ah, when will these darn kids learn to jump of bridges instead of bloodying up perfectly good firearms. If anyone is hell bent on leaving this world they are going to find a way to do it. Quite honestly, and some may find this cold, I don't care the least bit when it happens. It is the herd thinning itself. In my opinion if you are crazy and imbalanced enough to off yourself you are probably crazy enough to kill innocents. Sorry, I am not a bad guy, but I have no sympathy for suicide victims. It is the ultimate act of cowardice.

 

[El Tejon]

Are there sharp things in your house? Poisons, or things that could be poisons? Will she poke holes in all of the plastic bags? Bulldoze the garage? Take out the bathtub?

People who use that argument are using it as a stalking horse for their own fears? She is afraid of something. Better find out what it is, right now.

Something she saw on television or discussed with a girlfriend. She is a mother and her job is to prevent any possible harm to her offspring.

However, you as the father know that dangers must be conquered as you cannot avoid them forever. You will teach your child to swim, not avoid water. You will teach your child to drive, not walk along the interstate. You will teach your child to handle firearms, not to be ignorant and helpless.

 

[jamz]

In general, if someone really wants to whack themselves, they do it despite the obstacles.

I just can't believe that her argument is based on something that *may* potentially happen ten years or so down the road.

Both of my kids have severe (read: fatal) food allergies. They could kill themselves with a snickers bar or some peanut brittle. Or, as you said, some asprin and whiskey that are in the house, or some rope that is in the house, or any of the kitchen knives, etc. etc.

I think that is a good point that clubsoda made: If you are serious, it will be done, through firearms or whatever. If you just want to "make a statement", you do it though a way that is less fatal.

Anyway, I've changed my plan regarding my strategy of this argument. Seeing as how this will be a lifelong application, I think I will shoot regularly for maybe three or four months, then bring in the slide and barrel of a pistol and say that I will be keeping that at home, locked away. From there, I move to full firearms and no ammo. Form there I move to firearms and ammo in the house, but seperate. I think things will change when my kids start getting interested in guns, because then I intend to give them full access at the range, and start instilling safety and responsible handling at the earliest age I can.

 

[Waitone]

Google up "Gun Facts" and download a PDF file. Open it and look for the section dealing with guns and suicide.

 

[jamz]

Wow, great link, thanks.

 

[Ryder]

I really hate to leave you guys thinking you're safer because of a combination lock. When I was in the military between the ages of 17 & 21 I was required to keep my guns locked in the safe on base. It never took me more than a week to obtain the combo when I transferred to a new duty station. The CO and OD were supposed to be the only ones with that information.

Where there is a will there is a way. To suicide proof anyone remove the will to do it or they will find a way.

 

[manwithoutahome]

Jamz,

It doesn't matter the way or the how, if someone wants to commint suicide, they will.

Luckly, most just do a slight act to cry out for help. A gun, or a knife, or even eating poison is a solid attempt.. and all work very well.

M

*don't ask me how I know. Thanks.

 

[James Bondrock]

if a person (especially a teen) wants to commit suicide, it is usually around 100% successful if attempted with a gun versus other methods.

Even if this were true, the person must want to commit suicide in the first place. Anyone hell-bent on doing so is not going to be dissuaded by the lack of a gun. Suicides by means of guns are not always successful, either. I knew a guy whose brother tried it by firing a .25 automatic into his temple. It not only did not kill him, but left him blinded.