Guns are for liberals, too

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willbrink

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Guns are for liberals, too
By: Mike Eber
The Michigan Daily
University of Michigan
Posted: 11/26/07

If there is one issue that alienates me from my liberal counterparts, it's gun rights. So when the Supreme Court decided last week to hear its first Second Amendment case since the 1930s, and as the College Libertarians raffled off a gun voucher, I felt a bit alienated from other liberals. This experience has forced me to re-evaluate what it truly means to be a liberal.

I attribute my liberal leanings to my upbringing in a politically liberal home. Because of the ideology of my parents and older sister, I get plenty of heat for my beliefs about gun ownership. When I turned 21, my mother asked me if I was excited to finally drink legally on campus. I responded that I could really care less about joining my peers in the teeming, sweaty mess people call Rick's. For me, turning 21 was really exciting because I gained the right to carry a concealed weapon in the state of Michigan. I was met with the usual emotional response - comments that I was "sick" and would never be welcome in my mother's house if I chose to buy a gun.

As I wonder what led me to be the black sheep of my liberal family, I remember my middle-school social studies teacher, Mr. Jankowski. Mr. J, as we called him, sported a glass eye and a passion for civil liberties. I now realize Mr. J educated our class indirectly in the political philosophy of John Locke. While teaching lessons on the Bill of Rights, he would explain that this perceived necessity to bear arms is not only for self-defense but is also essential to preserve a democratic society. If a government does not fear an armed populace, then that government is not truly democratic, because it does not need to respect the electorate's authority.

Through our lessons, we learned that a democratic and civilian-controlled military is never to be taken for granted, which necessitates civilian armament. Gun ownership rights are, in fact, the first rights restricted when a democratic society turns for the worst. Weimar Germany was a free society that treated Jews better than most other places in Europe. Then Adolph Hitler came to power. As The New York Times reported in 1938, after Kristallnacht, Hitler declared an edict "forbidding Jews to possess any weapons whatever and imposing a penalty of twenty years confinement in a concentration camp upon every Jew found in possession of a weapon."

Consider our presidential election in 2000. Blatantly ignoring the will of Florida voters, the U.S. Supreme Court handed victory to Bush on a technicality. Liberals agreed that there was nothing more to do in appeal, but according to Locke, if a government is guilty of systematic abuse of its power, then citizens have a right install legitimate rule. Instead, liberals stood by willingly after the ruling, acting as if they had just lost a close football game.

We may not need a compelling reason to own a firearm other than the fact that an armed populace is necessary for the security of a free state. Anti-Patriot Act liberals should realize that if they cannot trust the government to respect the privacy of their phone calls or to grant proper due process, then they should probably not also assume the government can be trusted not to disarm its citizens in the name of public safety.

My liberal friends love to cite instances like the Virginia Tech shooting and violent crime statistics as emotional appeals to restrict gun rights. I have heard that guns are more lethal than knives and make society more dangerous rather than promoting general safety. I definitely concede this fact: In the best of all worlds, nobody would need to ensure for his or her own defense. Similarly, in this utopia, we would not need to bother with the constraints of due processes because the government would always be righteous.

Like Ben Franklin and all other liberals, I would not give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety. Weighing public safety against the liberty of gun ownership and establishing militia follow in the same vein. Many Americans scoff at the necessity of modern day minutemen, and I hope they will not be needed in our lifetime. However, preserving the Second Amendment is like having a good insurance policy: You may hate making the monthly payments, but you sure are glad you did when an inferno consumes your house.
 
I don't like assuming that all Liberals are anti-gun any more than all Republicans are pro-gun, but anywho...

Had a liberal guy at work today who was told that I'm the local gun-guy and he told me that he would like to see all privately-owned firearms destroyed. I asked him why's he's so sexist and racist - once his outrage cooled, we actually started discussing the issue pretty reasonably ;)
 
Anti-Patriot Act liberals should realize that if they cannot trust the government to respect the privacy of their phone calls or to grant proper due process, then they should probably not also assume the government can be trusted not to disarm its citizens in the name of public safety.

This same point has occured to me. However, it shouldn't surprise anyone that the same liberal radicals who were trying to overthrow the "military-industrial complex" and the gov't in the 60's are now trying to take away our guns...now that they have the power.
 
Libertarians just get to sit back and watch the Dems and Repubs try and outspend each other while blaming each other for all the problems in the world.
 
Many people throw "liberal" around like a foul name. But take a quick look at the root of the word, and notice it's related to "liberty". While in the other corner, "conservatives", if they were exactly that, would be restrictive. In fact Neo-cons are very restrictive, however, conservatives are the more vehement in calling the other group "un-American", a throwback to the Red Scare that continues today, where anybody to the left of the Republicans is tarred with the brush of "socialist" or "communist".

Therefore, let's discard the terms of "liberal" and "conservative" for a second. There are Democrats and Republicans, and traditionally the difference has not been about rights or moral values, but simply about government size. Democrats want a bigger government with more uniform laws and controls to protect the people as a whole. Republicans want a smaller government with more localized laws, so each citizen has a bigger voice in influencing their immediate surroundings. Neither is wrong, they are merely different ways to look at government. Even the most anti-Federalist-leaning citizen recognizes the need for some form of uniform oversight of the states, and even the most Federalist-leaner recognizes the need for local interpretation and adjustment of law.

The problem is that, in the popularity contest that our elections have become, a 10-second sound bite can make or break you, and in those ten seconds people want to hear about issues that affect their lives, even from the person who would be perhaps furthest removed from the issues concerning the public. Thus, moral issues have entered politics (there are two words that should NEVER be used seriously in the same sentence). The party with the majority takes a stand, and the minority party takes the opposite stance unless doing so would be political suicide (the definition of suicide changes from day to day; it was once unthinkable to oppose the Patriot Act, now it's a very credible platform indeed). Organized religion has supported Republicans (higher taxes mean less in the offering plate), and to maintain that support, Republicans have adopted religious moral standards (anti-abortion, anti-homosexuality). Liberals take the opposite. Thus government has entered our social lives, and "conservative" refers now to the conservative moral values bleated by Repubs as "the only American way to think", and "liberal" is everything else, though if you research moral theory, the vast majority of philosophers take what neo-cons call the "liberal" point of view.

I do not disagree with the notion of smaller government and states' rights, if that's all the Republicans espoused. However, that is not the case, and the Republican party has now taken the opposite stance on practically every issue on the board, from government spending to foreign policy to religious dogma being cemented into legal doctrine.
 
I have a black friend who teaches in a local 90+% black college where they are seriously liberal and mostly anti. (Ironic to me) He loves shooting and can't talk about it where he spends a great deal of his time for fear of reprisal, if not fireing. Sad.

Lack of Tolerance - Not just a Conservative thing. :cuss:
 
What I hate most about politics in this country is how the parties have capitalized on specific rights.

I see gun rights being a smaller segment of a much bigger right; the right to privacy. And even though the ability to own a firearm has more important consequences (self defense, etc) than others, it still comes down to no one having the ability to tell you what you can and can't do.

So while the republicans have monopolized gun ownership, the Democrats have monopolized abortion even though both are really the same right, privacy.

Up here in Milwaukee there is a group of us liberals who enjoy a day at the range as much as any of ya. In time, I think in time more and more of us will see the forest for the trees and drop the endless pursuit of the big bad evil guns.
 
Owning a gun is not about privacy, it is about both self-defense and rights defense. Privacy is not an enumerated right within the constitution.

I will ignore your abortion comment as that is not related to this question.

Edit: Silly liberal, guns are for cons!
 
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Consider our presidential election in 2000. Blatantly ignoring the will of Florida voters, the U.S. Supreme Court handed victory to Bush on a technicality. Liberals agreed that there was nothing more to do in appeal, but according to Locke, if a government is guilty of systematic abuse of its power, then citizens have a right install legitimate rule. Instead, liberals stood by willingly after the ruling, acting as if they had just lost a close football game.
I wouldn't have used that example, but I'm also not a liberal. I'm a libertarian, and I don't like Bush or Gore, but I don't think we did too badly with Bush, I think he is sincere if poorly spoken, as opposed to Gore, whom I consider a lying, cheating scumbag. But enough politics, I just mean to point out that I don't think you'll win any friends with that paragraph. I should say that I agree what SCOTUS did was illegal, but what Gore did was illegal too.
Jeezus, I just can't help myself getting political!
-Nolo out.
 
Owning a gun is not about privacy, it is about both self-defense and rights defense. Privacy is not an enumerated right within the constitution.

You're right, owning A gun is about defense, but self-defense alone would not save my nor many other posters collections, as I have more guns than years spent on Earth.

I guess the point I was getting at was if one can see the reasons for not interfering with a choice to abort or not, why doesn't this logic carry over to other things such as ownership of firearms?
 
The connection between guns and privacy is that it would be impossible for the government to disarm the citizenry without violating at least the fourth and fifth amendments, and probably several others.
 
I agree calling all liberals anti-gun is something I see way to much of on here. Although I may consider myself a republican many of my political views cross back and forth between all sides of the spectrum. Some of my views are certainly republican, others democratic, some are certainly conservative and some could be construed as downright liberal. However I would certainly say that my views would most closely align with those of Ron Paul, so in that sense I can't consider myself anything but a republican.

Many of my gun owner friends proudly declare they are liberals, many more say they are Democrats and would never be republican. I even have gun owning friends that swear they will vote for Hillary and others Obama:barf: No matter how much I try to talk them out of those views they are steadfast in their commitment and there's only so much I can do to try and persuade them otherwise.

I honestly don't think your political stance determines whether or not you are pro or anti-gun, I know many republicans who are anti-gun just like I know many Democrats and liberals who are pro-gun. The door swings both ways, my suggestion would be when someone states they are a liberal don't assume they are anti-gun, maybe ask them first, you may be surprised by their answer.
 
I have to sympathize with your plight and applaud you for following the path of common sense. I too am a Conservative, and even so, abhor many of the "Republican" inflicted assaults to our people. I can only stand george bush when one holds him up to the al gores, john kerrys etc, of the Democrat party.

Still, "Consider our presidential election in 2000. Blatantly ignoring the will of Florida voters, the U.S. Supreme Court handed victory to Bush on a technicality. Liberals agreed that there was nothing more to do in appeal, but according to Locke, if a government is guilty of systematic abuse of its power, then citizens have a right install legitimate rule. Instead, liberals stood by willingly after the ruling, acting as if they had just lost a close football game."

I wasn't in Florida at the time of that election, having moved out for a few years. I do consider that "fact" a lie that has been told often enough for many to accept it as fact. (A common liberal tactic). There were several Florida recounts as a result of the US Supreme Court decision, not just one. The real culprit IMO was the total Democrat Florida Supreme Court that attempted to hand the election to the dems. Every recount (intensely watched by both sides) had an outcome showing that bush won the vote by a narrow margin in Florida. If somenone can explain how the Republicans stole the state vote, I am willing to change my mind, but just don't buy the dem mantra.
 
If you believe that liberal politicians will uphold our rights to own guns, you should hang your head in shame. I don't care about someone's sob stories about how they can be liberal and still love guns, the square peg just don't fit into the square hole. It's a lie and I'm calling it a lie, and anyone who is a liberal is not liberal when it comes to the first and second ammendment! you either support the constitution, or you do not! no middle ground, no ground given, no quarter!
 
In that case, Stevereno, you should be a Libertarian.
Which means you agree with about half of the Liberal platform.
 
Well he kind of hit it on the head. Same reason I prefer the leftists (not liberals) disarmed. If the leftists in this country start arming themselves than we might have problems. But liberals? At this point we need all the help we can get.
 
Actually, I'd say a Liberal that believes in gun rights is as close or closer to the founders than a conventional right-winger.
Why?
They believe in personal freedom.
They believe in economic freedom, if limited.
They believe in the right to keep and bear arms.

Whereas a conventional right-winger doesn't believe as much in personal freedom, believes in more economic freedom, and believes in the right to keep and bear arms.

So it's about equal.
Welcome to the gunny side, Will. Not that you haven't been here.
 
In that case, Stevereno, you should be a Libertarian.
Which means you agree with about half of the Liberal platform.

I don't really think that is exactly an accurate statement. Perhaps I am wrong, but when I think of contemporary liberalism (which should just be called progressivism or socialism), I think of anti-capitalism, and special privileges for whoever is deemed a societal victim. That some of those instances of victimization might actually fit with libertarianism is more of a coincidence than an indication of common ground in foundational philosophy.

Anyway, that there are some liberals who appreciate the 2nd Amendment is nice to hear, but really isn't very endearing for all of us non-liberals. The fact remains that liberal society and their politicians seek to disarm us all. It's unfortunate that somebody smart enough to see why that is absurd doesn't also see why socialized medicine is equally as stupid.

Since everybody was having a bit of a discussion about what "liberal" or "conservative" means, I guess I'd say I'm a classical liberal (i.e., a libertarian). Actually, I should probably avoid that term since I really am more of an objectivist, and while the two are very similar, they are usually thought of as being incompatible with one another.
 
A liberal believes in limiting free speech. When the light is shined on their beliefs, they are as follows, they believe that the second ammendment grants the right of the government to have an army, but not the right of the citizens to keep and bear arms, they believe that as much of our money must be confiscated in order to buy votes from the stupid and lazy, they believe that we should do away with the concept of marriage, and replace it with a "civil-union", they believe that God has no place in the public forum, they believe that an armed citizen is a dangerous citizen, they believe that we should open our borders all of the time, letting anyone who enters the country illegally become a citizen, while blocking citizenship from anyone outside of old Mexico, they believe that anyone who is not a liberal is an idiot, and they believe that a person who supports sucking a baby out of a wounb, and grinding it up, to be a sane, and celebrated, and calls it " freedom of choice". I am not aven a 10000000th of a percent liberal, my friend.
 
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There is an excellent article titled "Excessive Gun Control is Inconsistent with Liberal Values": http://rule-303.blogspot.com/2006/07/excessive-gun-control-is-inconsistent.html

As a an affirmed Liberaltarian, I can tell you first hand that not all of us agree that the issue of Gun Control is a liberal value. Unforunately, the political parties in our country tend to hold hostage certain hot button issues because it was to their political advantage at some point or another. The issue of guns remains a front line in our nation's culture war... which, for me, makes it particularly fascinating.

Aside from our nation's absurd political history, can anybody explain just what the heck the issue of Gun ownership has do do with Abortion, The War, Health Care, Religion, Immigration, Energy policy, and the Environment? The logical or philisophical connection between these issues and guns is tenuous at best. The connection is more cultural... and American gunny culture is a unified block of libertarian republicanism.

Let's break this down in simple terms. I'd wager that Liberals (and liberaltarians) would be more open minded to the firearm sports if going to the local shooting range or reading The High Road didn't involve running the Rant Gauntlet about things like why Mexican day laborers and liberals are the bane of America. Of course, I like guns enough that I really don't mind the company of die hard republicans, as long as they like guns too. But as an observer of both sides, I think that republitarian gunnies need to use a little bit more finnesse when it comes to persuading lefties.

Here's a little scenario for you... from a liberaltarian to my right wing gunnies friends. You're at the shooting range, and its time for everyone to go down range. If the shooter next to you is wearing a alpaca sweater and berkinstocks, then he might just be a lefty (not a southpaw, a LEFTY). Now... if you've struck up a conversation with him, then you're probably about to say something like: "Guns AND Haliburton AND Minute Men ROCK!". :rolleyes: You're talking about guns, that's a good start... but this wide cast net might be a turn off to the lefty. The lefty packs up early and goes to his lefty home, never to bother the gunnies again.

OK... rewind same scenario, but this time, try patting him on the back (or not) and saying something like "Guns AND Chocolate AND Babes ROCK!". :evil: The liberal's enthusastic bleeding heart might just stop gushing for a moment long enough for him to grin. That pasty toothy smile will indicate that you have stumbled onto something that we can all agree on. Then you'll be like an inside man. Step 1: Gain the Liberals Trust. Follow my advice, and you will help ensure that said lefty returns to the range again and again until the "Seed of Gunny" has been sowed in his heart. Soon, all his liberal friends and family will become gunnies too. Before you know it, NPR Morning Edition will be sponsored by Smith and Wesson and the New York Times will have featured editorials by Jeff Quinn. Since you're all spending some much time at the range together, maybe, over time, you'll convince the lefty - gone - gunny that Minute Men do indeed rock. Of course, maybe he'll end up convincing you that Global Warming is real. Who knows what might happen?

As for what liberals should do, is to stop hating on gun ownership... but that's a discussion for bradycampaignforum.org.
 
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