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Guns for Investment Purposes

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It's a lot less risky than mutual funds when we all know life as we know it could collapse any day.
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What saavy investor is going to be willing to purchase your high end collectible if the world as we know it comes to an end?

There are much safer bets for your cash than guns.....unless you are profiting from the transactions like Guns America does.
 
No gun will always go up in value.

But these will likely be considered to be valuable guns for a long time:

Ithaca 4E Knick trap guns in unaltered condition
Colt Python revolver
Military issue 1911 pistols
Winchester factory riot guns in Model 1897 and Model 12
Winchester pre-1964 Model 70
 
What saavy investor is going to be willing to purchase your high end collectible if the world as we know it comes to an end?
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Probably someone who has bought a lot of gold.

I think guns are generally a poor investment. You can make some money, but they are not very liquid. Many are saying to put up to 10% of your investments in gold bullion. I guess a bit tied up in firearms is not such a terrible thing. I have enough tied up without considereing them an investment although I do dabble in some high risk stuff because I like the stuff.
 
Why isn't it possible for me to post here without someone pointing the discussion at GA? I never said buy or sell anything on GA.

With all due respect, because you clearly know something about traditional investing, not everyone loses when there is a collapse, and there are many countries that will do fine, and people even in our country who will do fine. High grade guns have value to people all over the world and plenty of those people will have money. What do you think columbian drug lords collect? What do you think european old money aristocrats collect? GUNS! And high grade guns are a status symbol of wealth the world over.

I did write a 6,000 word article about this that I linked to and it is fairly comprehensive about exploring the thinking behind traditional investing, gold, and guns depending on which way America goes, and none of us know which way that is.

Guns are the best place to put your money right now for insurance and liquidity (real estate lacking that) and how much money you have to put away governs what kinds of guns you buy. What do you think has more of a guarantee that it will be worth at least what you put into it five years from now, a $5,000 Rizzini, a $5,000 Barrett, a $5,000 mutual fund, $5,000 bar of gold or $5,000 in cash?
 
Guns are the best place to put your money right now for insurance and liquidity
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Best place for liquidity? Can you offload a $10000 english double as quickly as 7 and a half ounces of gold? I think not. You may want to research that one again. Gold, T Bills and other investments are traded on a board. Gun values are left up to the whim of a handful of folks that may be interested in your wares. I am confident there are many more places to sell gold/stocks than guns.
 
Now that the market is flooded with devalued guns I'm guessing that those who bought guns as an investment are not feeling too smart right now.
 
Today you can sell the gold because the sheep are lining up to buy it, but you will pay a brokerage fee on the buying and the selling. What if in the next five years chinese demand hits the J curve, they open up their currency to actual market value, and the whole world gets bailed out of this mess, and all the worry was for nothing. Your gold may never be worth nothing, but it ain't gonna be worth ten grand my friend. I personally would stick to newer production Italian doubles, not English, but I'm pretty sure it will be worth more than ten grand. Guns work if America does well or does poorly. Gold, traditional investments, and even real estate don't all do well in all situations. Guns do at least "fine" in all situations. You seem to be stuck on the fact that someone has to want to buy that actual gun, but for some brands and especially engravers and types of engraving scenes there is never a question of that.

Supernaut you are actually making my point, the one that is of course in the article. Guns are extremely devalued right now, especially sporting arms. With the recent supreme court decisions there is no reason to believe that demand for guns is only going to increase in the US.
 
An already saturated market that is flooded with even more product equals a massive correction. The price for firearms is about to fall to record lows.

I plan to buy a lot of guns when this happens, not because I'm making an investment, but because I'll be able to get what I want at a reasonable price for a change.
 
It over saturated with black guns but from what the market annalists are saying who actually track this stuff (I just had this conversation with the guy who runs Rock River), the people who bought the guns during the O bounce aren't selling them. That means that we have a whole new crop of new gun owners out there who can be future hunters, competition shooters, reloaders and enthusiasts. I started our magazine specifically for these people, to lead them to the next step in the path to gun nut, which I believe all red blooded Americans should be.

So, er, you might want to go buy some guns. :)
 
I have a '97 Winchester Trench Shotgun (bayonet lug, bayonet, head shield, etc) made in 1904 that's in great condition (makes me think it was reblued at one time though). It might be worth something down the road.
 
Those who bought at the peak don't have to sell to over-saturate the already saturated market. However, the manufacturers that ramped up supply to meet the demand, do.

Cheaper guns means more guns in the hands of the people who really need them. So the new crop of potential gun owners are entering the market at a really great time.
 
So, let me see if I understand this... Someone with a pecuniary interest in the buying and selling of guns is suggesting that I should abandon other forms of investment and buy high-end shotguns with my cash now, because when the economy crashes and "life as we know it could collapse any day", I'll still be able to sell them to Colombian drug lords at the drop of a hat to get the return on my investment.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that doesn't sound like a solid investment plan.
 
I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.


Guns are not great investments. There are guns that will grow in value but you really want to put your money into something that is more liquid. If you want your money to hold its value and make some gains I'd say buy gold.
 
It over saturated with black guns but from what the market annalists are saying who actually track this stuff (I just had this conversation with the guy who runs Rock River), the people who bought the guns during the O bounce aren't selling them.
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In many cases, these folk can't justify selling these guns because the guns are worth so much less today than what they paid a year ago. And that, of course, highlights the principal danger in considering any durable good to be an actual financial investment; predicting the market's movements is not easy and certainly not a casual endeavor. The folk that profit by buying and selling guns generally do so because it's not a hobby to them.

So, er, you might want to go buy some guns.
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Not putting words in anyone's mouth here, but it should be pointed out that nobody should EVER invest dollars that they do not have and cannot afford to lose. If you do not have free/discretionary cash on hand, then you should not be considering buying guns - period.

You seem to be stuck on the fact that someone has to want to buy that actual gun, but for some brands and especially engravers and types of engraving scenes there is never a question of that.
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Actually, the 'virtual' markets are rife with 'collectibles' that are still waiting for just the right buyer to come along (and that's one of the big reasons why both the auction and non-auction sites have adopted zero-listing-fee policies). It's that much worse in local markets; I know of many storefronts and individuals that simply cannot sell certain high-dollar or 'collectible' inventory specifically because the local market has no such interested buyer.

In the event that I am forced to convert guns to cash or any other necessity, my planning includes almost certainly doing so via the local market (defined as within twenty miles or so from my house). For that reason, I would consider only 'non-collectible' items to be actual investments. Commodities will sell in a localized economy. Collectibles will not.

But back to the OP:

I'm interested in what guns (of whatever sort) would be most likely to increase in value over time. I am now 70 years years young and wish to leave something behind for my grandchildren that will only increase in value as time goes on.
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You will be well served to determine the types of firearms that they are likely to use most; the best investment is one that they will be able to use or sell, depending on their specific needs and circumstances. Having said that, I have attempted to set aside a few things for my children that I fear may not be available to them in later years; examples include double-stack 9mm pistols and military-looking semiautomatic rifles. In my case, I am looking at these gun purchases NOT as financial investments but instead as investments in future utility.
 
I look at them more like a savings account. I get precious little "spare" money, so when I get a few hundred and I have nothing specific I need I buy a gun... because even though I may loose or make a few bucks, I can always liquidate the guns for other guns or more pressing toys.
 
So, let me see if I understand this... Someone with a pecuniary interest in the buying and selling of guns is suggesting that I should abandon other forms of investment and buy high-end shotguns with my cash now, because when the economy crashes and "life as we know it could collapse any day", I'll still be able to sell them to Colombian drug lords at the drop of a hat to get the return on my investment.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks that doesn't sound like a solid investment plan.
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Yea, I am but lets make it about GunsAmerica instead of the actual OP question and a 6,000 word article I wrote on the subject, just so the mods can give me more demerit points. The article and my comments clearly were addressing the big money investor, which was the major complain of the original answer to my post.

Actually, the 'virtual' markets are rife with 'collectibles' that are still waiting for just the right buyer to come along (and that's one of the big reasons why both the auction and non-auction sites have adopted zero-listing-fee policies). It's that much worse in local markets; I know of many storefronts that simply cannot sell certain high-dollar or 'collectible' inventory specifically because the local market has no such interested buyer.

In the event that I am forced to convert guns to cash or any other necessity, my planning includes almost certainly doing so via the local market (defined as within twenty miles or so from my house). For that reason, I would consider only 'non-collectible' items to be actual investments. Commodities will sell in a localized economy. Collectibles will not.
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And that is exactly why I suggested in the article that people with some money to "store" somewhere, not "invest" as this discussion has gone towards, buy regular old Remington 700s, because in a pinch, a deer rifle compared to an AR is only marginally less the path of least resistance should we have a run on banks and actual civil unrest.

I'm clearly not a gloom and doomer as you can tell from the article, but there just aren't any more sound financial vehicles to store money right now than guns. If you have "investments" that you can in fact afford to lose as you notably pointed out, storing 300 model 700s is not so easy, but as investments I feel the high grade market is currently undervalued as long term investments. They have traditionally had returns approaching double digits.

We are talking about two situations here so please don't confuse them. Storing money in a vehicle that "won't be worth nothing" as gold is sold as is a serious thing, but I think guns are much more worthy of investment because they are undervalued historically whereas gold is overvalued historically. Investing is a huge other thing and I have made that argument as well as I can make it already.

As for your local argument, it is 100% sound, but as I answered one of the people who posted to our board, if you want to take your chances that your gold will be worth something if America does have a sudden and violent fall and we do face food shortages and real civil unrest, I am much more confident of my ability to swap an old mossberg 28" 2 3/4" shell shotgun that I paid $200 for, for a dozen #10 cans of Dinty Moore than a gold coin that I paid $2,000 for. And as I explained in detail in the article, the other ways America can and more likely will go show very little risk for your investment to be worth much if anything less than you paid, and there is a decent chance for a small return if you buy stuff right.
 
I'm not going to even pretend I know the best place for you to invest your money, but I will say this with near certainty. DO NOT BUY GOLD RIGHT NOW.
 Anyone who suggests you put a large chunk of money into gold right now(as a profitable investment, not as an emergency fund if the dollar goes under) has no idea what they are talking about.

Gold has been steadily trading at new historical highs every few months for over a year now. It is NEVER a good investment strategy to buy near a historical high. Remember what the rule of investing is? Buy low and sell high? Well if you buy gold right now, you will be buying at an all time historical high... you will likely get skinned. Buying gold right now would be like buying a house in 2007 or 2008.

Yes, theoretically you could sell if it keeps going higher and make a good return, but it is far more likely that it will drop back down to historical averages in relation to other goods. In that case, you would be losing a lot of money.

Certain guns might make a decent investment with a lot of research, but your family will appreciate the memories of you taking them hunting/fishing/camping/shooting a lot more than any possession. Just take them hunting with a beater rifle or shotgun and they'll still cherish those guns forever after you die.

I'd give my car, my guns, every cent I have, plus one testicle just to go fishing or shooting with my grandpa one more time... and that's the truth. He died at age 67... younger than you. You never know when your time is up so go into the great outdoors with them this weekend... if not today. Actually, get off the computer and go now.
 
In many cases, these folk can't justify selling these guns because the guns are worth so much less today than what they paid a year ago
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And hence the REAL issue... they KEY to any financial planning is knowing when to buy and when to sell. Of course nobody REALLY knows... but people make edcuated guesses. For instance, most people on this board could have told you that after Obama was elected, it was too late to get a good deal on a firearm; you needed to wait a year or two for prices to come back down to earth. Well, to nobody's surprise here, two things happened: 1) people who waited panicked and overpaid by buying literally at the top where sellers were naming their price and 2) people who overpaid and could no longer justify owning the firearm (loss of job, didn't use it, etc.) sold at heavy losses, and have flooded the market. In investing this is called a bubble or a spike.

Had ANY of us liquidated our gun collections in January of 2009, all of us would have made HUGE profits.

We watched the same thing when stocks were overbought during the internet bubble. I was a stockbroker at the time and literally had clients paying hundreds of dollers PER SHARE for shares of companies that never produced any product and no longer exist just 10 years later! Ask yourself "Why". Many of these companies didn't produce a single thing and vanished overnight.

We watched the same thing during the housing market boom of the 1990s and early 2000s... Buyers were chasing prices through the roof (literally) and sellers were naming their prices. Loans were easy to get and people were signing on the dotted line for any price. And then the bottom fell out. Why were houses doubling in price every 5 years?

We are currently watching college educations going the same route. For the first time in history it was reported that a college degree may not be a wise investment at going prices because they are too expensive, but loans were easy to get.

And GUESS WHAT ELSE is overbought.... look at the charts on gold. Straight up.

But ask yourself "Why"... What makes gold so precious? Nobody has ever been able to tell me other than, just because. Electronics conductors? Please. Jewelry? Who cares?

I think gold is a suckers market. The Sheeple are being taking to the slaughter. $1300 for an ounce of colorful metal. Foolishness.

To answer the OP question - I DO think that firearms AND ammo are a good investment for a WELL DIVERSIFIED investment class. Like any investment, you MUST buy low. That means that retail is strictly out. It means buying privately, new or near new guns for 20% below retail. Buy your ammo in bulk on sale. Know your guns and ammo. Store them well. Best case you can sell them during a perceived crisis at a large profit, or one of your guns becomes valuable unexpectedly (the K31 has doubled in price in 3 years). Worst reasonable case is that you either break even or, if prices fall through the floor, you have a functioning firearm and ammo - assets to show for it under any conditions.

Other good investments are mutual funds (however I personally think the stock market is rigged, and usually individual stocks are a bad bet, but with mutual funds you spread that risk).
 
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Dear Rusty:

Queasy logic: "Gold has been steadily trading at new historical highs every few months for over a year now. Well if you buy gold right now, you will be buying at an all time historical high... you will likely get skinned. Buying gold right now would be like buying a house in 2007 or 2008. Yes, theoretically you could sell if it keeps going higher and make a good return, but it is far more likely that it will drop back down to historical averages in relation to other goods. In that case, you would be losing a lot of money." Yes, Rusty, but you don't "lose money" until / unless you sell your gold. "... steadily trading at new historical highs..." This is a trend, Rusty. Follow trends and get rich from them. I have. I've bought in at the beginning of your sentence, and sold off two years later. TWO YEARS LATER. Profit: 118%. In two years. Can a Mossberg claim that?

And if one thinks that stocks are "rigged", DON'T get into Mutuals: "Share the risk, Share the loss." Track single stocks, learn your own plan, and avoid mutuals. They are for dummies.
 
You've GOT it, Zomb!!

I have 1000-times more in gold, but a substantial amount in brass/lead/primer qizmos. And I am as we speak buying standard issue 1911, CZ, Mossberg, SW, and a lot of others as I find them at "fire sale" prices. The market is quickly saturating on guns, as slow-selling auctions indicate on line, and gold is at a plateau. Powder and primers are fluctuating, I'm buying. Grocery-prices at W-mart are up by 50% since January. Do you see a trend? Guns are becoming "investments" once more.
 
Not many understand gold. Gold is money. It is a stable reflection of the value of other things. When gold costs more dollars, it's because the dollar changed; gold did not change.

If a new currency was introduced today, what would its value be? Ask gold. How many of them do you need to buy an ounce of gold? That's how much something is worth.

Of course, you could value something in apples, or oil, but they don't work very well as money. An apple changes too much over time. Oil is smelly and hard to carry around. Paper money is just a promise waiting to be broken. If you don't believe this, take a paper dollar to the bank and demand 1/20 oz of gold. You cannot; that promise was broken in 1933. Likewise, the promise to redeem a dollar for 371.25g of silver was broken in 1964.

Gold is money because it works as money better than anything else. It holds value through time. It is portable. It is immutable, extremely difficult to destroy. Toss an ounce in a bonfire, and even though it melts, when the fire cools, the whole ounce will still be there. Pound it with a sledge hammer, and you just get a thinner piece of gold. Drop it in a dish of acid, and gold just sits there unaffected.

If you did want to invest in something to pass down to your grandkids, you could do a lot worse than gold (and a lot better than an expensive Italian shotgun).
 
Technically gold's value would change if a major new mine were found that radically changed outlooks of total available gold, or if Goldfinger were to make a huge store of gold unusable for many years (that's an interesting case, as one could still own and trade the irradiated gold even if they never took delivery).
 
Anyone who suggests you put a large chunk of money into gold right now(as a profitable investment, not as an emergency fund if the dollar goes under) has no idea what they are talking about.

Gold has been steadily trading at new historical highs every few months for over a year now. It is NEVER a good investment strategy to buy near a historical high. Remember what the rule of investing is? Buy low and sell high? Well if you buy gold right now, you will be buying at an all time historical high... you will likely get skinned. Buying gold right now would be like buying a house in 2007 or 2008.
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I bought an ounce of gold in 2007, when gold prices were at their highest to date. I paid $850. It's now worth over $1300. I could probably sell it for a few hundred dollars profit easy. I'm just saying - just because something is climbing value, doesn't mean it wont' continue to climb, or it could plummet to historic lows. It's the nature of investment.

An important aspect of any investment is what level of risk is acceptable to you. At 70, looking to leave something nice for my estate, my risk level would be much lower than me at being 30 and buying the first .9999 pure gold coin ever issued by the United States Government, from money that my grandma left to me. It was something I wanted to keep and pass on to later generations, and I figured it was interesting enough to have in memory of my Grandma.

To the OP - assess your acceptable level of risk. What if what you bought isn't worth more later on? If you'd like to buy a couple interesting firearms that mean something to you, to leave behind - that will mean something to your heirs much more than just some fancy custom guns that can never be shot.

I recommend getting some firearms that you like, go out and shoot them with your family, then leave them to them. History will decide what the firearms are worth monetarily, but the memories of you shooting with them will be priceless.

For something that might climb in value over time, make your best guess - or talk to/pay a financial consultant, and listen to their guesses. No one knows for sure.
 
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