Guns in Space; Not Such a Good Idea

Status
Not open for further replies.

Titan6

member
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
4,745
Location
Gillikin Country
Amusing.... Sad but amusing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17300028/

How to deal with out-of-control astronauts
NASA spells out procedures for subduing out-of-control astronauts
NASA via AP file
An out-of-control astronaut might have to be subdued with brute strength, since there are no weapons on the space station or the shuttle.
By Mike Schneider
The Associated Press
CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla. - What would happen if an astronaut came unglued in space and, say, destroyed the ship’s oxygen system or tried to open the hatch and kill everyone aboard?
That was the question on some minds after the apparent breakdown of Lisa Nowak, arrested in Orlando this month on charges she tried to kidnap and kill a woman she regarded as her rival for another astronaut’s affections.
It turns out NASA has a detailed set of written procedures for dealing with a suicidal or psychotic astronaut in space. The documents, obtained this week by The Associated Press, say the astronaut’s crewmates should bind his wrists and ankles with duct tape, tie him down with a bungee cord and inject him with tranquilizers if necessary.
“Talk with the patient while you are restraining him,” the instructions say. “Explain what you are doing, and that you are using a restraint to ensure that he is safe.”
Guns in space: not such a good idea
The instructions do not spell out what happens after that. But NASA spokesman James Hartsfield said the space agency, a flight surgeon on the ground and the commander in space would decide on a case-by-case basis whether to abort the flight, in the case of the shuttle, or send the unhinged astronaut home, if the episode took place on the international space station.
The crew members might have to rely in large part on brute strength to subdue an out-of-control astronaut. A gun would be out of the question; a bullet could pierce a spaceship and could kill everyone. There are no stun guns on hand either.
“NASA has determined that there is no need for weapons at the space station,” Hartsfield said.
NASA and its Russian counterpart drew up the checklist for the space station in 2001. Hartsfield said NASA has a nearly identical set of procedures for the shuttle, but he would not provide a copy Friday, saying its release had not yet been cleared by the space agency’s lawyers.
The space-station checklist is part of a 1,051-page document that contains instructions for dealing with every possible medical situation in space, including removing a tooth. Handling behavioral emergencies takes up five pages.
The military has a similar protocol for restraining or confining violent, mentally unstable crew members who pose a threat to themselves or others in nuclear submarines or other dangerous settings.
Arrest prompts review of screening process
Although Nowak performed her duties with aplomb during a short visit to the space station via the shuttle in July and was not scheduled to fly again, her arrest has led NASA to review its psychological screening process.
A mentally unstable astronaut could cause all kinds of havoc that could endanger the three crew members aboard the space station or the six or seven who typically fly aboard the shuttle.
Space station medical kits contain tranquilizers and anti-depression, anti-anxiety and anti-psychotic medications. Shuttle medical kits have anti-psychotic medication but not antidepressants, since they take several weeks to be effective and shuttle flights last less than two weeks.
The checklist says say astronauts who crack up can be restrained and then offered oral Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug used to treat agitation and mania, and Valium. If the astronaut won’t cooperate, the drugs can be forcibly given with a shot to the arm. Crew members are instructed to stay with the tied-up astronaut to monitor vital signs.
Space station astronauts talk weekly via long-distance hookup to a flight surgeon and every two weeks to a psychologist, so any psychiatric disorder would probably be detected before it became so serious that the astronaut had to be brought home, Hartsfield said.
No NASA astronaut at the space station has been treated in orbit with anti-psychotic or antidepressant medications, and no NASA shuttle crew member has required anti-psychotic medications, Hartsfield said.
‘You sort of shift yourself mentally’
Depression, feelings of isolation and stress are not unheard of during long stays in space in tight quarters.
A couple of Soviet crews in past decades are believed to have experienced psychological problems, and U.S. astronaut John Blaha admitted feeling depressed at the start of a four-month stay at the Soviets’ Mir space station more than a decade ago. Antidepressants were not available.
“I think you have to battle yourself and tell yourself, ‘Look, this is your new planet ... and you need to enjoy this environment,’ ” Blaha told the AP last week. “You sort of shift yourself mentally.”
During missions in 1985 and 1995, shuttle commanders put padlocks on the spaceships’ hatches as a precaution since they didn’t know the scientists aboard very well. Some crew members, called payload specialists, are picked to fly for specific scientific or commercial tasks and do not train as extensively with the other astronauts.
Would-be astronauts are carefully tested and screened to eliminate those who are unstable. But unless they are bound for the space station for a months-long stay in orbit, they are not put through any regular psychological tests after that.
Astronauts selected for the space station get a psychiatric assessment six months and a month before launch.
No good studies of stress levels
Dr. Patricia Santy, a former NASA psychiatrist and author of the book “Choosing the Right Stuff,” said there are no good studies of astronauts’ stress levels or how they adapt psychologically to space.
U.S. astronauts at the space station keep a journal for a study by a Santa Barbara, Calif., researcher. But Santy said the diaries won’t help detect mental illness.
“What astronaut is going to tell you they’re feeling homicidal?” she asked. “They’re very conscious that if they say the wrong thing they could get grounded.”
Astronaut James Reilly, who is flying on space shuttle Atlantis in March, said it is unlikely a U.S. astronaut would lose it in space. Space tourists who pay the Russians $20 million to go to the space station are another matter, he said.
“I think we stand a greater chance of someone getting a little nuts with the space tourists that fly occasionally, because it’s less rigorous,” Reilly said.
© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
 
Last edited:
I can't really say whether they are a good idea or not, as I've really never thought of it.

But it does raise some interesting questions about ballistics, recoil, target reaction, etc.

One of those things that makes you say "hmmmm".
 
“I think we stand a greater chance of someone getting a little nuts with the space tourists that fly occasionally, because it’s less rigorous,” Reilly said.

This is in keeping with NASA's principle of keeping commerce out of space (heaven forbid). Given the well-known flipout of a fully screened and sanctioned Government Astronaut, I'd say this sort of statement has almost no credibility left. It's time to shut NASA down forever and farm the money out to industry to sell moon rocks or rides.

As it stands now, space is the last bastion of communism. It's even illegal to sell moon rocks!
 
I would be willing to bet that the Russians carry something more lethal than duct tape up there.;)
 
I am kind of going two ways with this.

1. If a .45 with say 450 lb KE from the muzzle was fired in zero G would the 200 lb astronaut shoot to the other side of the Shuttle?

2. Despite the recent meltdown of the 'diaper stalker' astronauts are likely the most examined and tested members of our society. Yet even they are not trusted with firearms on their own. The risks are too great even though there are a multitude of ways one could destroy a space ship easily without one.
 
I would be willing to bet that the Russians carry something more lethal than duct tape up there.

A short-barrel shotgun on some previous Soviet-only flights, according to published accounts - Ostensibly, for wolves and the like...
 
Oh, it's actually a double rifle/pistol of some kind. It shoots a shotgun shell and (probably) a 7.62x39 bullet. The Russians didnt land on water like we did, they landed on land, in the middle of nowhere. There's wolves and stuff in the middle of nowhere, so yeah.
 
Guns in Space...

Not a good idea in a small craft like our space shuttle. There are many things on there that won't work if they've got a slug through them. In space, you really need your crap to work.

However, if you're really interested in the theoretical possibilities of weapons on spacecraft, go to the Atomic Rocket Page and read their section on sidearms. Discusses lasers and the like too.

But hull holes might not be a primary concern, it is going to take the better part of an hour before air loss through a bullet hole is a problem.

Mike Williams notes that it isn't just the hull that is vulnerable to stray shots. There is plenty of equipment you don't want to damage or it will spray corrosive chemicals / shut down the oxygen / make the atomic reactor go critical / do something else equally nasty. Space Patrol cadets are warned not to give asteroid pirates any ideas (e.g., don't take cover next to a large fluorescent orange pipe with the label "DANGER: LIQUID SODIUM" stenciled right next to the skull and crossbones)

James Borham has another often overlooked concern: Speaking of bangs, one thing that virtually every sci-fi writer ignores is the fact that any boarding party is going to need hearing protection. Loud noises (like gunshots) are bad for ones hearing, and narrow metal corridors make great echo chambers, increasing the effect. A modern SWAT team uses suppressed weapons not for stealth, but to protect their own hearing. Anyone firing a weapon on-board a starship is going to have the exact same problem, only many times worse.
 
Captain Ramius: Hey, Ryan, be careful what you shoot at. Most things in here don't react too well to bullets.
Jack Ryan: Right.
[Moves closer to enemy, who fires several shots at him]
Jack Ryan: *I* have to be careful what *I* shoot at?
 
Shuttle Shoot

The question:

>1. If a .45 with say 450 lb KE from the muzzle was fired in zero G would the 200 lb astronaut shoot to the other side of the Shuttle?<
*************

No. Although a pebble and a 50-foot diameter boulder weigh the same in Zero G...nothing...mass is still mass.
 
Oh, I'd totally carry into space. Get a scandium revolver to save weight and stop brass from flying everywhere in freefall. Remember, in space, every ounce counts!

It depends on the construction of your craft. The Space Shuttle is not an especially durable machine. The limitations of chemical propulsion mean that every tiny ounce of weight has to be monitored, so nothing has much in the way of protection.

Now, if you were to install a more robust propulsion system, you've got more options...
 
Cartoon.bmp
 
LOL...I love that comic.

The answer is that firearms WILL work in a vacuum. Gunpowder has its own oxidizer, just like rocket fuel.

They may not work WELL, though. Any liquid lubricant would boil away, leaving either a powdery or a gummy residue. Then you've got the problem of parts seizing up because it's colder out there than you can believe (until the sun hits you, then it heats up really really fast and gets really really hot).

Of course, if you've conquered all THAT, you've got the problem of overheating. The only way to get ride of waste heat in space is by radiation; there's no air to cool the barrel/action.
 
but he would not provide a copy Friday, saying its release had not yet been cleared by the space agency’s lawyers.

You know, somehow I doubt that NASA had staff lawyers during the hey-day of the moon-race.

*sigh*

LawDog
 
Captain Kirk never had problems like this. His weapons never missed and pierced the hull or damaged any sensitive equipment. He could also call on his red shirted goons to remove any troublemaker.
 
The checklist says say astronauts who crack up can be restrained and then offered oral Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug used to treat agitation and mania, and Valium. If the astronaut won’t cooperate, the drugs can be forcibly given with a shot to the arm. Crew members are instructed to stay with the tied-up astronaut to monitor vital signs.

Haldol can work wonders. Once upon a time, I witnessed (from real close by -- I was the one who took her to the ER) someone in the middle of a psychotic episode. Started screaming -- OK, we gotta do something now. The ER nurse gave her a shot of Haldol. She stopped screaming, fell asleep, and woke up a half hour later lucid. Not cured lucid, but able to interact.
 
I am fairly certain a firearm would work relatively fine in space if you ignore a couple issues (lubrication was mentioned earlier). The same concepts apply to Earth-based light gas guns that operate under an artificial vacuum environment to accelerate projectiles upwards of 6000-7000m/s for hypervelocity impact testing using combusting hydrogen gas (helium used too as a propellant, bu can't combust)

The firearm would achieve higher velocities than on Earth because of the vacuum creates a higher pressure difference. The pressure wave propagation and speed of sound through the medium of the propellant gas would probably remain the same...maybe even slightly higher because heat cannot dissipate through convective means, and conduction would only serve to homogenously heat up the entire gun.

On the plus side, anyone that wants that "cryogentically treated/tempered" steel would have it done for free in space because its several fractions above absolute zero (–459.67F). On the minus side, metal gets very brittle at those temperatures so the gun might shatter when you fire it. At least evil black rifles would fare best because they'd radiatively dissipate heat much better than a silly chrome finish.


I probably gave that too much thought :p
 
Last edited:
Is it just me, or does anyone else see a "What guns for aliens?" discussion on the horizon?
 
The pressure difference would only be 14.7 psi higher since that is the air pressure at sea level. Not a great deal more differential in space.

I didn't think the temperature got down to absolute zero in near earth space what with the sun and all the planetary bodies radiating heat. It can get pretty cold though so low low temps would be an issue.

It would be interesting to see what velocities could be reached.
 
Lubrication could be handled by plastics/polymers or fine polishing for bearing surfaces. Remember - the things don't have to function for thousands of rounds. They just have to be somewhat reliable for a number of them...

And does anyone else remember the "use a .45 for propulsion" in outer space bit? I think I was in fifth grade when those questions came up... Gee, if they asked 'em in school today...
 
Hmmm, someone's earlier suggestion made me think...a .38 Special Scandium S&W, loaded with some sort of low-velocity rubber slugs?

Or why not a Taser?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top