Guns in the hands of the mentally ill

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Drizzt

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Guns in the hands of the mentally ill

BY J.R. LABBE

Knight Ridder Newspapers

"FBI: Data on mentally ill could save lives," announced the Fort Worth Star-Telegram headline last week.

At last. Recognition that without access to some medical records, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is an inadequate tool for keeping firearms away from people who, under federal law, can't have them.

No sane person on either side of the gun debate can reasonably argue that the instant check is not a good idea. Initiated in 1998, NICS replaced the Brady Act, which required a five-day waiting period between the time that an individual filled out the paperwork to buy a handgun and when that person could take possession of it.

Today, when a person goes into a licensed gun dealer's to purchase a firearm - be it a handgun or a long gun - the business operator is, in most cases, able to get an immediate answer from the FBI-operated computer system as to whether that individual is prohibited from buying one.

Of the more than 53 million background checks for gun sales that the FBI says it has conducted since 1998, fewer than 2 percent have resulted in denied sales. Gun-control advocates find little comfort in those numbers, but the truth is that the overwhelming majority of people who buy firearms have every legal right to do so.

Of the more than 850,000 sales that were denied, most were nixed because the applicants were convicts. That's what the law is supposed to do: keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

But felons aren't the only ones who are barred from buying firearms. Federal law prohibits gun purchases by the mentally ill. Privacy laws in most states prohibit access to personal medical records, so unfortunately there's no way for NICS to provide complete information to a licensed gun dealer who calls in for a background check.

Therein lies the stuff that makes for nightmare stories that are used to club gun rights proponents over the head:

Farron Barksdale killed two Athens, Ala., police officers in 2004 with a rifle he'd bought on Christmas Eve. Barksdale had been involuntarily committed to mental hospitals at least twice.

Shayla Stewart of Denton, Texas, was hospitalized five times - twice by court order - for psychotic problems before she bought a shotgun and killed herself with it.

Peter Troy bought a rifle in New York - a state with famously tough gun laws - and fatally shot a priest and a worshipper during Mass inside a Long Island church. Troy, a schizophrenic, had been admitted to mental hospitals twice.

It's only after a tragedy, when police and the media are interviewing mourning families and stunned friends that the shooter's history of mental illness comes to light. People bent on doing harm to themselves or others aren't likely to tell the truth about that on the yellow sheet they must fill out in order to buy a gun.

Before privacy advocates start wailing about Big Brother, it's important to know that the federal legislation proposed to fix this problem covers the records of only those individuals who have been found mentally defective by a court or have been committed by a judge to a mental institution.

According to congressional research, 10 states currently provide disqualifying mental health records to NICS, but only one of those comes close to turning over complete records. Eight states have ponied up fewer than 40 records each. Not 40 percent of the records - just 40 records.

The lack of disqualifying mental-illness records isn't the only problem that the feds face in conducting timely and accurate background checks. States aren't holding up their end of the deal by making sure that the FBI has complete criminal records.

About 24 million criminal records are held in state archives that aren't automated or aren't accessible by NICS. An additional 16 million that are automated and accessible are missing crucial data, such as arrest dispositions.

This aspect of the gun debate should be one on which both sides agree: The NICS database must be as up to date and complete as possible so no one ever has to read another story about felons or mentally ill people making headlines with a gun that they weren't kept from buying.

---

ABOUT THE WRITER

Jill ``J.R.'' Labbe is a senior editorial writer and columnist for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram. Readers may write to her at 400 W. 7th Street, Fort Worth, Texas 76102, or via e-mail at [email protected].

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/news/editorial/13348669.htm
 
"No sane person on either side of the gun debate can reasonably argue that the instant check is not a good idea."

Beam me up Scotty.

John
 
Does any sane person believe that psychiatry is an exact science?

Does any literate person not realize that "mental illness" is the diagnosis given to dissidents in totalitarian regimes?

Has no one read Orwell or Heller?
 
So then the next thread I open says...

"Nearly 30,000 airline passengers discovered in the past year that they were mistakenly placed on federal "terrorist" watch lists, a transportation security official said Tuesday."

Maybe they should just put everybody on one big list and outlaw everything.

John
 
BTW I also don't think that it is right to deny the right to realistic self-defense, in their own homes, to people convicted of boutique felonies, either. If "felony" meant felony, okay, but it doesn't any more.
 
Dr. Helen, Instapundit's Instawife, indicates that 93% of people in the psych field describe themselves as "liberal".

There is a strong correllation between "liberal" and "gun bigot".

One does not hire the fox to guard the henhouse.


The criteria for denying someone access to arms should be precisely the same criteria used to involuntarilly commit someone to an institution: the person presents a clear and present danger to themselves or others. Additionally, all the usual checks and balances that apply to involuntary committal should be deployed.

Anything less invites abuse.

In light of that, you will find it often asserted that there are folks who have serious diagnosis, such as severe schizophrenia, for which it is reasonable to argue that their rights should in fact be curtailed.

Are such folks a danger, or not? If they are, what are they doing wandering around loose in public?


Hmmm......

A meaningful discussion _can_ be had about these cases.

There are plenty of other cases, though that are transient in nature, or, like phobias for example, do not inherently present a danger.

At the end of the day, I'm not comfortable trusting a profession that is so ideologically one sided to make reasonable judgements in this matter on the "grey" cases.
 
KEVLAR/NOMEX/SHIELDS ON/

Some people should not own firearms.

EDPs are a very serious problem. If you look at a stats a lot of the firearm "rampages" that are done by people, are done by people who have severe who have psych problems.

I have worked in ERs, Psych units, and lived with someone who had Bipolar disorder.

I repeat some people should not own firarms.

The hard part comes in setting the boundries. IMHO boundries are definetly needed.

Other posters are right in that such boundries have been used for political puposes elsewhere ( and probably in the US as well ) but just because someone misuses a firearm we do not believe that not allowing someone else to have a firearm is logical ( I believe I am speaking for a majority of people here on THR :) ) Just because some misuses voting by vote fraud doens not mean we no longer allow voting.

It is a very diffcult problem

NukemJim

KEVLAR/NOMEX/SHIELDS OFF/
 
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Does any literate person not realize that "mental illness" is the diagnosis given to dissidents in totalitarian regimes?
So what's your point? Are you trying to politicize a thread concerning mental illness, which includes very real medical disorders -- suffered by a great many people who do in fact represent a danger to others, as well as themselves?

If they are, what are they doing wandering around loose in public?
Do you not believe that it is possible for very sick people, who most definitely should not own or have access to firearms, to be "wandering around loose in public?" Spent any time walking the streets in large urban areas recently? Ever dealt with the health care system in this country in an attempt to get someone who was suffering from a very real psychosis, into treatment? How can you ask that question?
 
You guys do realize that there are a whole host of minor mental issues that people get diangosed with all the time which don't indicate that they're in any way likely to harm each other or someone else?

I fully admit that I'm fairly ignorant about this subject. But I do know from studying the firearm laws of the various states that several states completely bar people who have ever been diagnosed with any type of mental problem from owning guns (Hawaii, for one), and as I understand it, it's a lifetime bar and there's no chance of appeal. Can anyone honestly state, with a straight face, that someone who had ADHD as a teenager is going to be some kind of threat to society as an adult? Because this is what the Democrats want; they want guns to be available to as few people as possible and they want to make it so that purchasers are viciously discriminated against on the basis of whatever they can possibly get away with using.

I realize that there are people out there who are well and truly sick, can't take care of themselves, or can't recognize reality. I have a friend who is severely bipolar; every now and then he goes off his meds because he thinks he's been cured and then he dissapears (involuntarily committed after going on a manic rampage). Then the cycle repeats itself.

But let's get real here. Those people aren't the ones whose guns the anti-rights crowd is after. I have no reason to believe that the definition of "mentally ill" will be interpreted in anything but the broadest fashion possible.
 
You guys do realize that there are a whole host of minor mental issues that people get diangosed with all the time which don't indicate that they're in any way likely to harm each other or someone else?
Absolutely correct. I, for one, totally oppose medical records being made automatically available to the FBI and accessible to the NICS. Now, I grew up in a household with an immediate family member who suffered for years from some pretty serious mental disorders, and I know firsthand there are people out there who should never, ever have access to or own firearms ... But as others are pointing out, there are other issues at stake here.

I have no reason to believe that the definition of "mentally ill" will be interpreted in anything but the broadest fashion possible.
Hmm. NICS is administered by law enforcement, not the medical establishment. One would have to believe then that the FBI has that agenda. We get into a whole host of ramifications here, because there is already strong federal law protecting the privacy of medical records. While the FBI and the anti-gun faction may lament a few cases of serious mentally ill persons getting a hold of firearms and using them, it simply doesn't appear that there is a substantial number of homicides occurring by persons who legally purchased firearms subsequent to a diagnosis of a serious mental disorder. (Now, suicides may be a different issue.) Who would be the arbiter of questionable cases? I'd hope the FBI really doesn't want to bite into this one after due consideration ...

Because this is what the Democrats want; they want guns to be available to as few people as possible and they want to make it so that purchasers are viciously discriminated against on the basis of whatever they can possibly get away with using.
I keep hearing this argument, but I'm nowhere near convinced there's any validity in it ... Which Democrats? The party leadership? They're gonna be pretty skittish on gun control issues for a while, and I'm not hearing any buzz from that party about the whole NICS-mental illness thing (yet) ... The folks who vote Democrat? Again, I don't think those people usually vote for that party based on gun issues; I'd submit any gun control platforms will actually continue to hurt that party (particularly in traditional Democrat strongholds such as Michigan). Now, those groups vested in anti-gun policy DO want guns available to as few people as possible, no one here would argue that ...

Note that the whole issue of NICS needing to be bounced off mental health records seems to have originated from the FBI. Not the Democrats. And now, the issue is being fed by a "senior editorial writer and columnist" for Knight-Ridder Newspapers ...

Now this
I'm a sane person, and I can reasonably argue that we used to be innocent until proven guilty.
is a clever sound bite, but some could reasonably argue that the NICS is not a case of you having to prove you are innocent, but rather the government having to prove that you are not innocent (by verifying that you have not been found guilty of a felony). Although it's not really an "instant" check at all ...
 
Old Dog:

Are we talking about commitment records where a Judge--i.e., some due process--was involved? Or are we talking about ordinary medical records where people see their doctors under the assumption that the information exchanged between doctor and patient is going to be kept confidential?

In the former there is due process and a means of appeal.

No due process exists in the latter, and worse, people are not notified about what they're getting into by visiting their primary care physician. "Yeah, there is doctor patient confidentality, oh, except for the tiny matter that your private information that we discuss is going to be sent to the FBI. Hope that's ok."

Taking that route is really not unlike mandating that attorneys report privileged information about their clients to law enforcement as well.
 
Old Dog:

Either you've misread me, or I've not made myself clear.

"Why are they wandering around loose in public?" is a rhetorical question.

A trend that started in the 60's, accellerated into the 70's, and now stands confirmed in this age of managed health care is to dis-institutionalize the mentally ill, and place into outpatient care a wide swath of the psychiatric population. The theory was that meds + periodic monitoring would be sufficient.

In some cases it is, and in some it is not.

This is a mixed bag, with plenty of room for discussion, good in some cases, but not in others.

One of the downsides is, as you point out, that a disproportionately high percentage of the homeless are those who ought to be under psychiatric care, but are not.

This "lowering of the bar" for psychiatric care has created this third category, those who legitimately DO present a higher than normal degree of potential danger to themselves or others, and yet fall beneath the level required for committment.

The rhetorical question was aimed towards solving this issue, the answer to which is not clear cut, and probably beyond the scope of this forum.
 
No due process exists in the latter, and worse, people are not notified about what they're getting into by visiting their primary care physician. "Yeah, there is doctor patient confidentality, oh, except for the tiny matter that your private information that we discuss is going to be sent to the FBI. Hope that's ok."

Taking that route is really not unlike mandating that attorneys report privileged information about their clients to law enforcement as well.
Exactly, which is why I stated NO medical records should ever be made available to the FBI ... Now, one would presume that if one is involuntarily committed to a mental health institution (many are now called "behavioral medical centers," perhaps reasons of p.c.) for treatment of a serious, diagnosed mental illness, by a judge -- those records could already be available for the FBI ... But for medical health practitioners to automatically make records of medical treatment, even treatment for mental disorders, available to law enforcement solely to prevent someone from ever purchasing a firearm ... that is wrong.

GeekWithA45, yeah, I suspect I mis-read you, sorry ... See, that's the problem ... who draws the line? There are many seriously mentally ill people who are never committed. Our capacity for mental health care in this country is seriously overwhelmed, and since our medical care system is in such disarray, the issue isn't gonna be a priority anytime soon, it seems.
 
I think that anyone with 2 or more 180 day civil commitments or 1 commitment + a violent felony conviction (or attempted prosecution with not-competent-to-stand-trial finding) should be "listed" and then informed upon release from civil commitment that they can petition to get "delisted."

As for due process, in WA state patients subject to a 180 day involuntary commitment petition by the state have a right to a jury trial if they so request. About 1 in a 100 exercise their right (almost universally failing to be released).

As others have alluded, our mental health system swung pretty far in the '70s and '80s after some pretty horrific abuses came to light. That said, I think the current system needs better balance.

Something folks should keep in mind is that it is not uncommon for folks commited for 180 days to be "recompensated" and released early. I.e. they go back on their meds. and level out. The problem is that a fair percentage of these folks hate their meds. (many have truly awful side effects), they stop taking them, go downhill, and get picked up again. Hopefully before they've hurt someone or themselves.

Full disclosure - I prosecuted these for about 6 months helping out the team responsible (No jokes about my own "6mo. invol. commitment" please). :D In my limited experience prosecuting a few hundred of these cases, including a half dozen or so jury trials, the vast majority of mental illness cases are very sad. Terrible for them and their families. But a very, very small pecentage of these patients are scary and modern medicine can do little for them other than dope them up and lock them away.
 
You guys do realize that there are a whole host of minor mental issues that people get diangosed with all the time which don't indicate that they're in any way likely to harm each other or someone else?

I have worked in the mental health field for the last 10 or so years. While there are certainly some mentally ill people that obviously are dangerous, based upon their actions and threats, most aren't so clear cut.

Exactly who does the author mean when she says "mentally ill people?" Does it include people that were diagnosed as children? Does it include poeple that may have been misdiagnosed? I have gotten it wrong, in terms of a diagnosis. Does it include people that were diagnosed for a transient condition that has long since resolved itself? Are there specific mental illnesses that will preclude gun ownership, or is it any and all mental illnesses?

I see some major problems with this kind of system. People that are not a danger to themselves or anyone else would likely be denied an adequate means of self-defense. Additionally, are clinicians going to be asked to decide if people should own guns? There is a huge potential for abuse.
 
Old Dog said:
So what's your point? Are you trying to politicize a thread concerning mental illness, which includes very real medical disorders -- suffered by a great many people who do in fact represent a danger to others, as well as themselves?

"Trying to politicize?" ROTFLMAO

You used the word yourself: INCLUDES

Do you not believe that it is possible for very sick people, who most definitely should not own or have access to firearms, to be "wandering around loose in public?" Spent any time walking the streets in large urban areas recently? Ever dealt with the health care system in this country in an attempt to get someone who was suffering from a very real psychosis, into treatment? How can you ask that question?

Actually, I knew someone (not a friend, of course) who planned and set up a murder, then killed three people in cold blood. He was mentally ill, but it would have been hard to differentiate his "issues" from those of a lot of other grad students. He was fully aware of his actions. He was to receive death, but plea-bargained down to life with no parole.

The three people could have easily been saved, had anyone else in the room had a gun. But alas, it was on a college campus in California, so Brady Campaign-pushed gun control laws guaranteed that the murderer would be able to kill as many people as he wanted to, before the police arrived. He had stashed three full magazines in the room.

And you ask how this could be "politicized"?:scrutiny:
 
Oh, Jeebus, where do I begin?

1. NICS has done absolutely nothing to prohibit sales of guns to disqualified persons. In cases I have been involved in, if a person is denied, he goes and buys the gun: from his drug dealer, from a buddy at work (or borrows a murder weapon under false pretenses as my last murder), in the back of a bar. Criminals do not obey the law, no matter how much you want them to or how nice you are to them in your delusional, alternate universe.

2. The 850K denials includes no percentage as to mistaken denials. Middle initials, incorrect dates of birth, name spellings, incomplete court records (I see a lot of arrests entered as "convictions") all result in mistaken denials.

3. The mentally ill are not prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms.

4. Ted Kennedy is responsible for privacy as to mental health records.

5. Barksdale is an example of the utter failure of the feckless NICS. Court records were not forwarded. Tens of thousands of court records are not accessible (ask the author if he knows about the year cut off on court records) because of human factors, logistics and the law/admin rules of NICS.

6. Troy voluntarily committed himself. There was no violation of either state or federal law in his firearms purchase. New York's "tough laws" are designed to disarm the law-abiding, not stop criminals as even gun control advocates admit.
 
I have worked in the mental health field for the last 10 or so years. While there are certainly some mentally ill people that obviously are dangerous, based upon their actions and threats, most aren't so clear cut.

Exactly who does the author mean when she says "mentally ill people?" Does it include people that were diagnosed as children? Does it include poeple that may have been misdiagnosed? I have gotten it wrong, in terms of a diagnosis. Does it include people that were diagnosed for a transient condition that has long since resolved itself? Are there specific mental illnesses that will preclude gun ownership, or is it any and all mental illnesses?
So you have diagnosed people?

Do you warn clients up front and beforehand that speaking with you may generate the equivalent of a free Felony conviction in those states that bar people who have ever been diagnosed with anything from owning guns?

If you were statutorially required to put up a placard warning that speaking with you could generate such a record, how many clients do you think you'd lose?

Personally I think it would be a great idea, in response to the Dem's little scheme, to mandate that mental health professionals be required to have a placard in their offices stating just that.
 
I also wanted to mention that J.R. Labbe is no knee-jerk gun-control nut. She generally writes very clear concise pieces about maintaining personal rights and freedoms. She is a very good columnist, which is why I was very surprised to see this article from her.
 
This has been discussed several times here before.

If you look at the Rand quote in my sig, Rand only got it half right.


Government also has the power to crack down on the mentally ill ... great thing is (just like "criminal") they get to define mentally ill.



Once upon a time homosexuality was classified as a mental illness.

I have heard more than one leftist say that strong religious belief (in particular Evangelical Christianity) should be classified as a mental illness.

If you've read enough Brady and VPC type propaganda, you'll find people who believe the desire to own a firearm for self defense or defense against tyranny is a sign of mental illness (paranoia) ... or if you hunt you're nothing more than practicing to be a serial killer.

No sir, tying NICS to mental health records is just asking for trouble.


How many anti-gun therapists out there do you think would automatically classify any of their gun owning patients with a mental illness to eleminate their RKBA?
 
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