Guns of Vietnam (contd)

[84B20]

Off topic about weapons, but...

Jimmy,

I caught him in a lie that resulted in my not joining up(if he lied about my MOS,how many other lies did he tell me?).

I don't know how you caught the recruiter in a lie but in my experience the recruiters were often misinformed as to the MOS's that were available at any given time. For me, I wanted to enlist as a combat photographer but was told that there were no openings at the training school. I opted for camera repair thinking I might be able to work my way into the class since it was at the same location. I eventually did and served two tours as a photographer.

You might consider my cameras as one of my weapons in addition to the .38 or 9mm I carried as indicated in a previous post, so this post may not be entirely off topic.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

84B20,I cannot comment firsthand about the guns of Vietnam and my post was just my way of saying thank you to those of you who were there. The lie that I was told was that if I did not get my preferred MOS that I was no longer obligated to the army and could just leave. Remember this was in 1972. Please forgive the off topic post.

 

[Byron]

Jimmy,you are not off topic and I do appreciate your comments.I talked to otherers who were mislead (I was drafted so there was no choice). I am completly disabled from that war and could not wish it on anyone. I have a good life. Byron

 

[84B20]

Jimmy,

Again we may be getting off topic but it still needs to be said. I for one think you were trying to do the right thing so no need to apologize for not serving. Recruiters back then, and probably to some extent now, were under a lot of pressure to get people in the service so I'm sure some stretched the truth to some extent, to put it kindly.

Just look what is being asked of National Guards troops like multiple tours, more so than we served in Viet Nam. These soldiers, as far as I understand are supposed to guard our borders not fight battles overseas. It may be unpopular to say but maybe we should bring back the draft. IMHO.

Now I am getting off topic! Don't get me started on Viet Nam. I'll stop.

(I understand if a moderator wants to remove this post)

 

[61chalk]

My brother served very near the DMZ in 1969, I was in the early 80's with the
24th, we were mech with what I believe was the M113 APC. A Sgt. told us
that they were coffins made out of aluminum, a M16 couldn't penetrate it,
but a AK47 would rip right into them, you are very unsafe in them....can any
one verify this?

 

[Dr. Fresh]

Must not have been much of an APC if that's the case. Looks like they forgot the A part of it.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

we were mech with what I believe was the M113 APC. A Sgt. told us
that they were coffins made out of aluminum, a M16 couldn't penetrate it,
but a AK47 would rip right into them, you are very unsafe in them....can any
one verify this?

A 7.62 round will not penetrate an M113. However, an RPG most certainly will. In addition, they are vulnerable to mines - part of this is due to the construction, with the tracks inset so they are actually under the hull, as opposed to a tank which has its tracks mounted outrigger fashion. Inside the vehicle, the inset forms a ledge where radios and so on are mounted. A mine will often rupture the right angle formed by the ledge. As a result, only the driver rode inside the track -- eveyone else rode on top.

On the other side of the ledger, with the A-CAV kit mounted, you had an M2 HB .50 caiber in a reasonably well armored mount, and two M60s mounted in antenna brackets on either side. A single platoon, with 4 M113s, had 4 .50 cals, 8 M60s, and all the ammo they could possibly need inside the track. In many fights, that much firepower became a sort of "armor" -- to knock out a track, the enemy had to survive.

The M113 could also carry a coil of razor wire, so at night defensive positions were wired in. With wire and interlocking, overlapping fires, a mech company was a very tough nut to crack -- we fought some engagements in western I Corps, near the old base of Khe Sahn, where NVA battalions were thrown at mech units at night, and failed to penetrate their perimeters.

 

[Byron]

Nov 68, my battalion worked with the 2/8th Mech Inf in Bam Be thout. I got on a mortar track. It was comforting to have the fire power at night and the wire in place which is something we rarley had. The men I was with said the AK rounds would not penetrate. After that it was on foot and walking the Central Highlands weeks at a time. Byron

 

[mattk]

I have a picture of my dad with a Luger he captured in Vietnam. He picked it up while on an advisory team in 1967.

 

[SeekHer]

I’m not casting aspersions on his name and it means naught to me whether he served or didn’t, I commented that I had never heard or read of the M14 being outfitted, in the early years of the conflict, with scopes…not until the Army decided to do away with their Winchester Target M70s…

At least not one of the authors that I have mention it and that includes: Kevin Dockery, Stalkers & Shooters; Hans Halberstadt, Trigger Men and To Be A Military Sniper; Milo S. Afong, Hogs in the Shadows; Mark Spice, Sniper;, Andy Dougan, Through the Crosshairs, Peter Brookesmith, Sniper; G.Sgt. Jack Coughlin, Shooter; Anthony Swofford, Jarhead: A Marine's Chronicle Of The Gulf War And Other Battles of the more recent author published with reference to Vietnam and of those memoirs of Vietnam: Ed Kugler, Dead Center; Michael Lee Lanning, Inside the Crosshairs; John J. Culbertson, A Sniper in the Arizona and 13 Cent Killers; Joseph T. Ward, Dear Mom: A Sniper’s Vietnam; Craig Roberts & Charles W. Sasser, Crosshairs on the Killzone and One Shot, One Kill; Adrian Gilbert, Stalk and Kill and Sniper; Roy Chandler, Sniper One,; Peter R. Senich, The Complete Book of US Sniping and Limited War Sniping and all six volumes of Norman A. Chandler’s USMC Sniping: Death from Afar and another 140 books on sniping/distance shooting that I’ve collected over the years as part of my 4,200+ volume library…

 

[SeekHer]

Vern Humphrey --

Then explain the Uzi that the Israelis used so well during 4 wars

The Israelis mostly used them as secondary weapons for people with other duties.

Bullcrap, not until after Lebanon did they remove the Uzi from front line infantry use, thanks to the Galil and other firearms and the tank corps still used the folding stock version...prior to that every unit had SMGs just like the British & US forces did during WW2 and later...there is a classic photograph of a bunch of Golani (crazy like Marines) soldiers entering Jerusalem during the 6 Day War in 1967 all carrying Uzis...

The guards in the old days (1970s & 80s) on the beaches in Tel Aviv almost all carried US Carbine M1 and a few, Uzis...I haven't been back since 1999 so can't tell you what they're carrying now...probably old Galils...

and the US Secret Service issues to presidential details--see Reagan shooting attempt and then explain why the HK MP5 and USP are the darlings of every Special Forces group the world over including the USA...

Boys like to play with toys.

But in real combat, when people hide behind walls, rocks, logs and so on and shoot at you, you want penetration.

You're saying definitively that that 9mm and .45 ACP AP won't penetrate cinder block walls, fences and lath & plaster walls?
Then why would the Special Forces use them? They so special they only encounter their enemy in the open!
They are not distance weapons by any means but more because of their size, not caliber, they are used for room clearing or concealed carry and at that they excel...
Because I can definitively state they can!

Gryffydd --
Just like Vern said...they're for special uses--notice the "special" in special forces. Good for SF and the SS does not make them good for Infantry.

Bullcrap! Then why were the Thompson, Sten, US Carbine M2, M3 Grease Gun and the Uzi, issued to front line infantry as that's what the statements were about not special uses!

 

[chuckusaret]

Not trying to beat my own drum but I served tours in Viet Nam from 1962 to 1971 and in some cases a second tour with the same unit. I saw the aircraft change from the H13, H19, H21 to the UH1, CH47, CH46, OH6 and OH58. I saw our issue weapons change from 30 cal M1919A4 and A6 MG's, .50 cal MG, BAR's, M1 Garands, M2 Carbines to the M14's, M60's and then to the M21's, M16's, M241, M203's, M79's and shotguns, but with a few Thompsons and AK47's used in some special applications. I also carried a Ruger .30 caliber Black Hawk on several tours.
The equipment I saw or used in Viet Nam was not necessarily the same equipment you saw or used in the same unit in latter years. What am I trying to get across-------The Table of allowances and equipment (TO&E) for a unit meant very little during the Viet Nam conflict and the majority of units allowed the use of non TO&E weapons that could get the job done at least until 1971.

I forgot to mention the way out weapons and knives carried by the REMF's. I would guess the REMF's can be placed in the same catagory as the present day "Mall Ninja"

 

[JR47]

You're saying definitively that that 9mm and .45 ACP AP won't penetrate cinder block walls, fences and lath & plaster walls?
Then why would the Special Forces use them? They so special they only encounter their enemy in the open!
They are not distance weapons by any means but more because of their size, not caliber, they are used for room clearing or concealed carry and at that they excel...
Because I can definitively state they can!

That would be correct. Neither ther 9x19, or the .45 ACP is very good at penetrating plaster and lathe walls, nor are they very good at reliably penetrating brick, mortar, cinder block, or concrete as used in walls. The engagement range of the MP5 is 100 yards, maximum, and that only with skilled operators, against targets in the open. The round, itself, is dropping below 250 ft/lbs of energy at that range.

The pictures of HK MP5 equipped SF were mainly used to illustrate their abilities at Hostage Rescue, where higher powered weaponry could be hazardous to the hostages. They are also handy in subterranean work, or in similar confined areas.

A simple reading of any of the Operations Manuals for SOCOM makes that abundantly clear.

 

[rcmodel]

The engagement range of the MP5 is 100 yards, maximum,

SO, if a calvery trooper in 1885 could kill a horse or it's rider with a .45 Colt SAA revolver at 200 - 300 yards, why couldn't a skilled shot with a MP5 do as well?

We used to shoot and hit ammo crates at 100+ yards with 1911's when I was in the service, and I can assure you that you would not want to get hit with one at 2 or 3 times that distance!

rc

 

[CH47gunner]

While I respect & appreciate all who served overseas, many of those who did not serve in a combat MOS took advantage of their jobs, and made mine even more difficult. These would be the REMF's.

I served in VietNam from 12/2/69 to 12/4/1970.
I was a helicopter doorgunner (part-time crewchief) on CH47C Chinooks. I was with the 1st Aviation Brigade, 213th Assault Support Helicopter Company (BlackCats), in III Corp., at Phu-Loi. I was based within 10 K's of the Iron Triangle, flew the entire Cambodia Incursion, have over 1,000 hrs. of actual combat flight time, and have four Battle Stars on my VietNam Service Medal. I'll match DD214's with anyone here.

OK - there's my bona fides (& slight remf rant).

I was first attached to an aviation replacement company which was called Security Platoon, we didn't do anything except pull Bunker/Perimeter guard every night. The purpose of the security platoon was that each of the aviation companies would pull replacements as their people went home or as needed. I pulled bunker guard every night for almost a month. I was issued an M14 for this duty (M14 in 1969?), I had gone thru Basic with the M14 so I wasn't concerned. Each bunker was also issued an M60 machine gun, at least 4 Claymore mines, and sometimes a Starlight Scope.
I was quite surprised when I got my orders to a Chinook company as all my maintenance & gunnery training had been on UH-1's. Oh well, the Army knows best.
Once in my aviation company I was issued an M16 (I'd never even handled one), given a choice between a Colt 1911 .45ACP or S&W Model 10 .38 Spl., I took the S&W Model 10. I was also issued two M60D machine guns, these are the aviation model of the M60, with the butterfly handles and the ring & bead sights.
The arms guy took me out to zero my M16, I never fired it again, I also never carried it on the aircraft. As soon as I had an opportunity, I traded for a folding stock AK, and that was my personel weapon, which resided behind the refrigerator, in my hootch.
Almost every aircraft carried a M79, as these were very multi-functional. They could be used as a big shot-gun, grenade launcher, CS gas grenades, or even fire hand flares thru them. Most importantly, we could fire them from the back of the bird & the pilots couldn't hear the "Bloop" discharge. Occasionally, the pilots "didn't need to know".

Bruce

 

[chuckusaret]

I was with the 1st Aviation Brigade, 213th Assault Support Helicopter Company (BlackCats), in III Corp., at Phu-Loi.

Stopped at the 213th on many trips to and from Siagon when picking up new replacement aircraft. I knew Sfc Givens, one of the 213th's maintenace chiefs, he always had a snack and soda for our crew. My last tour was in Phu Bia 70/71.

 

[Ala Dan]

A silenced version of the Smith & Wesson model 39-2 9m/m was used by
some elite special forces, to silence sentry's and guard dog's~!

 

[PAshooter]

Also of note - decades before the Judge became the ultimate in revolvers (sarcasm, my friends) - some Tunnel Rats had been issued Model 29's converted to .410 shotshells - mainly because the shotshells could be fired in a sealed system which limited the potential for auditory injury in a confined tunnel.

DougDubya,

I suspect you're referring to the QSPR (a.k.a. "tunnel revolver") - a highly modified S&W Model 29 fitted with a smoothbore .40 cal barrel and built to fire a special round which externally resembled a .410 shot shell. The round launched a small handful of tungsten balls, and was designed such that it trapped all the propellent gasses within the case, thus drastically reducing the sound signature of the gun.

I have the honor of knowing the folks who designed and built this specialized weapon:

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg213-e.htm

 

[GeorgeF]

My father was in Vietnam in 1968 and 1969. He carried different firearms, but those in regular rotation were a Uzi, a Beretta M12, a Model 97 Winchester Shotgun and a Browning HiPower.

He was a civilian contractor training the South Vietnamese forces as well as some other duties.

 

[JR47]

SO, if a calvery trooper in 1885 could kill a horse or it's rider with a .45 Colt SAA revolver at 200 - 300 yards, why couldn't a skilled shot with a MP5 do as well?

And a .22 long rifle is lethal at 1 mile, according to the manufacturers. Hitting a horse with a pistol is one heck of a lot easier than trying to hit a hostage-taker at 100 yards. Horses tend to be a bit larger, and the rider/horse combination is larger still.

I can hit an ammo crate at 100 yards, too. Just not sure where on the crate it's going to hit.

The 100 yard range was determined by the SOCOM troops for use in hostage situations, where the MP5 is used. The ammunition for it was geared to be able to score head-shots to that range.

 

[CH47gunner]

Quote:
I was with the 1st Aviation Brigade, 213th Assault Support Helicopter Company (BlackCats), in III Corp., at Phu-Loi.

Stopped at the 213th on many trips to and from Siagon when picking up new replacement aircraft. I knew Sfc Givens, one of the 213th's maintenace chiefs, he always had a snack and soda for our crew. My last tour was in Phu Bia 70/71.

Off topic here.

chuckusaret -

Givens name rings a bell, was he a black NCO and did he recieve a Bronze Star?
My Flight Platoon Sergeant's name was Sgt. Gross, short little white guy. Pain in the rear (but Sarge, I'm too busy/stoned/drunk to get a haircut) but, a decent Platoon Sgt.

Are you a member of either the VietNam Helicopter Pilots Assn. or the VietNam Helicopter Crewmembers Assn.?

I'll see if I can dig up some pics of Phu Loi.

Bruce

 

[Blakenzy]

SeekHer-

The Bren was at best a makeshift firearm, made out of desperation, with junk parts but they worked, killed lots of "Bosch" and the side magazine meant they could fire and more importantly reload from the prone position...

You are mistaken, unless you are referring to the British Sten:

Bren (doesn't look like makeshift junk to me):

 

[Dr. Fresh]

I do believe he meant the Sten. The Bren is a fine weapon.

 

[trex1310]

Draftee

I'll be the first to admit I was drafted. I ended up in the 1st Cavalry and
became VN (Republic of) meat in July '66. My major (and mostly only) concern was to do my tour and go back to the world alive and in one piece, never to return to that living hell on earth.

 

[SeekHer]

Dr. Fresh -- I do believe he meant the Sten. The Bren is a fine weapon.

Thank you, I did...

Mea culpa, it should have been Sten, as the Bren was the best squad automatic weapon of the war (Sorry BAR!)--which the Japanese copied for their Type 99 (they also copied the 7.7mm round from the .303 British and removing the rim) and that I had the pleasure of being issued as my kibbutz gun for my position in the sandbags atop our cement underground bomb shelter...We also had Stens and Davidofs that were made in underground (literally) armouries during the Palestine Occupation days...

As the Canadian troops described the Sten, "pushed together baling wire and plumbing pipe" (I got to shoot them first time whilst in Army Cadets in the 1950s and 60s)...Licensed or unlicensed copy or their own design, Britain didn't care...they worked (enough) and they could turn them out quickly, cheaply and MOST importantly, with materials at hand...Czech, design, who cared, as it was behind the Nazi wall and in their control so royalties c/wouldn't have been collected or paid...