Guys at range- the dangerous end...

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Freedom in theSkies

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Here is a copy of the e-mail that I just sent off to the executive committee of the range that I usually go to.
Any of you have any suggestions or stories you would like to share?
ny ways, here is the e-mail message:
"Hi guys,
Just a note to let you all know that My son Cody and I were at the range on Saturday and we did a clean up out to the 100 yard target stands as well as the pistol range and then we lit up the burn barrels to get rid of the stack of trash and garbage that we policed up. There was even a few bags of houshold trash out there. A real shame to see! People are beginning to dump their cr@p out there!
Anyways, it made the range a little warmer while we were shooting. %}
Also, about 5 minutes after we started shooting, there were 3 fellows that showed up on ATV's. They started talking to us, and it turns out that they were up on the treed hill at the far end (500-600 yds. away) of the range when the barrage let loose. Good thing it was only 9mm, .45ACP and .22 at a 25 yard target.
THey said that they saw the signs indicating they were entering a live shooting range, but they did not hear any gunfire, so they decided to play on the side of the hill. I don't think that they will be doing that again. I also let them know ( In a polite way) that they were trespassing and that the only access point for the range was the main gate and not the side of the pistol range berm, like they had used when they came back to the firing point.
Anyways, glad that no one went home dead...
Do you thing that we ought to get a blast horn or something out there so we can sound it when the range is active?
CHeerz,
Dave"
 
PHP: 
Metapotent Quote:
then we lit up the burn barrels to get rid of the stack of trash and garbage that we policed up.  

Hmm burning garbage huh? How very un-environmentally friendly, and therefore un-Canadian of you.

Well, most of it was paper targets, ammo packages and wood scraps... Although there was also a fair bit of plastic packaging as well... Oh well, it was warm...:D
 
FWIW the general rule on ranges here is that a red flag goes up at the firing point and at the butts to indicate that the range is in operation, before firing starts, and there are signs at the gates advising of the significance of the red flags.

The main range I shoot on here actually has several ranges on the one complex, including 1000 yard fullbre ranges, pistol, shotgun etc, and it is shared with a riding school. AFAIK the riding school people are well aware of the significance of the red flags going up on particular ranges, and ROs are briefed as to the importance of getting the flags up before shooting starts.
 
If you have the range posted and fenced, there isn't much else you can do. I would talk to the cops about the incident ASAP as the atv-yahoo's may start spreading stories.

All the flags, horns and signs in the world isn't going to stop someone deliberetly screwing around. You only hope is that they kill themselves somewhere else and before they cause you trouble. (cheerful this am, ain't I?)
 
As long as it is "clearly" marked as a live firing range and no reasonable idiot (a true idiot savant can always screw it up, no matter what you do) could wander in there without knowing, there isn't a lot more that you could do.
Sure, sound a horn, shoot a flare, alert the media, pass a law, yell three times as loud as you can, hoist a flag, turn on the Batsignal, etc.
Where does it end? These clowns said they saw the signs and ignored them. Look, I do not want someone un-neccessarily hurt, but there comes a point where people have to accept some responsibility for their own actions. Darwin's principles did not just apply to the birds on Galapagos. I truly hope that no one gets hurt, but that is up to them not you! By switching the responisbility for their safey over to you, they can continue to lumber through life stupid and careless until they kill more than just themselves.
You could change the signs to read "LIVE FIRING RANGE, SILENCE MEANS WE ARE RE-LOADING. DO NOT ENTER UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH"
Stupidity should be painful.
Sorry, just not in a very PC mood this morning.:cool:
 
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In addition to "no trespassing" signs, I would post signs stating in big red letters;

"When red flag is up - live firing is in progress"

The BIG red flag to be posted on the highest piece of ground downrange, visible above any trees. And a permanent written "FLAG UP AT _______(time)", "DATE", "PRINT FULL NAME", "SIGN" .... "FLAG DOWN AT ... (etc)" log kept.

---------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
My wife is from northern Italy and we go there every year or so to visit family. A brother-in-law there is a shooter and likes to take me to a nearby range. Here are some of my experiences and observations...

In order to own any guns you have to get a permit from the government for each one. You have to have those permits with you when you take your guns out of your house.

The range is actually a wide shallow trench that has been bulldozed out of a corn field, with berms at 50, 100, and 200 meters. There is a little shack where you first check in with the owner of the place. He's a good natured guy who offers you snacks, soft drinks, mineral water, or a glass of wine (remember, this is Italy, not Texas...) while you fill out some government mandated paperwork. Once that's done you go to another little shack where there are several shooting benches. There are always some other guys there who all seem to know each other and joke and kid around, bang away, and help each other fiddle with scopes, etc. A lot like you would see at any range here in the US. I was surprised to find out later that none of these guys actually knew each other. The last time we were there a young Italian guy invited us to a shoot his various rifles. What he really wanted was to see if he could out-shoot me, which he did about half the time. But you guys will be proud to know that the US was honorably represented that day at the range. Every now and then the owner would come in, joke and kid around with people for a while, then call a cease fire while people went downrange and put up targets. When we were done shooting we had to stop by the office shack again and fill out more paperwork. While my brother-in-law was listing how many rounds of ammo he had fired for each of his weapons, signing more papers, etc. I looked at the posters and signs on the wall (Glock, Beretta, tasty girls, official notices, etc.) A bottle mineral water, some home made cookies, handshakes all around and off we went. One thing I noticed was that, just like here in the States, all the guys at the range were quite friendly with each other. At first I thought they all knew each other and were buddies. But no, my brother-in-law didn't even know the young guy whose guns and ammo we shot. Northern Italians are not the most friendly and outgoing people. In fact they are quite reserved. But the guys at the shooting range were about the friendliest people I've run into over there.

Even with the hassles and restrictions that my brother-in-law has to put up with to be a gun owner and shooter, at least in Italy he can be one. I think it is much harder, or even impossible in a lot of the rest of Europe, especially England and Germany. I think the French probably have about the same policies as the Italians. It seems like whenever some tyrant like Hitler, or a political monopoly (like communism, socialism, fascism, monarchy, aristocracy, etc.) is in power, one of the first things they do is outlaw ownership of weapons (guns, swords, etc.) by common people. The "in-crowd" is still armed, but nobody else is. The freedom that we Americans have, guaranteed by our Constitution, is something to be treasured and defended.
 
If this is a range idiots thread, I've got a couple of stories. First one: Was swabbing out my bore on the bench. I finished up and turned left to see a man facing backwards talking to his friend, and holding his AK 47, mag in, chamber closed, parallel to his shoulders, hip level, muzzle facing to his left, i.e., directly at my abdomen. I jumped back and loudly reminded him to keep his rifle pointed down range. He said, "What? Oh, yeah, sorry." At that point I packed up and left, after only being there about twenty minutes. The range officer was nowhere in sight.

Another time I was at the handgun range and this man, wife and ten year old son were shooting directly to my left. The man was, presumably, teaching wife and son to shoot. During a ceasefire, I turned left, and wife was talking to husband, and inadvertently pointing the revolver, cylinder closed (presumably loaded), directly at me. I jumped back and reminded her that it was as ceasefire, and all weapons needed to be on the bench, actions open. She looked at her husband, who promptly told he to just ignore me. Again, I packed up and left, but this time, before I did, I tracked down the ranger officer (a former US Olympic Shooting Team coach), and told him. He drove over there in a huff and told the guy to pack up and leave, and not come back. There was a huge shouting match that lasted a few minutes, but the guy left with his family. Turns out he was a NY City cop. Wow, you have to wonder what kind of range discipline he learned on the NYPD. Fortunately, this was Suffolk County Long Island, and he had no authority there.
 
I feel your pain. Before I was sent overseas I used to shoot at the Wasach range in Davis Co. UT. The back of the range faces some very large vertical country. It is not uncommon to get people hiking up there even though they hear the gunfire, see the range and have to had read the posted signs. You must call a cease fire and wait for the people to pass. I am not sure if the range is still operating, but I am sure it will get it closed one of these days because of complaints. It is not a bad place to shoot and was close to home.
 
I would stay away from things like putting up flags to indicate that firing is in progress because the converse could be assumed - if the flags aren't up there is no firing in progress. Maybe somebody goofed and didn't raise the flag, doesn't mean the range is safe. If all guns should be treated as if they're loaded until you know for sure otherwise then all ranges should be assumed hot until confirmed cold.

If you have your signs up indicating that it's a small arms impact area you're good to go.
 
I would stay away from things like putting up flags to indicate that firing is in progress because the converse could be assumed - if the flags aren't up there is no firing in progress. Maybe somebody goofed and didn't raise the flag, doesn't mean the range is safe.
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Exactly. A sign is plenty.
 
I hate to say this, but some of the worst offenders are police officers. Many are poorly trained in both range discipline and gun handling. Worse, some are so arrogant that they believe the badge allows them to disregard not only range rules but basic safety precautions. And most simply can't shoot.

At one time, I instructed police, but I have no idea what type of qualification is required today. I think many of today's officers could not hit the proverbial bovine with the proverbial fiddle, let alone hit anything with a handgun.

Some police do shoot well, and practice on their own time and with their own money. My hat is off to them. But if some of the other kind open up, I want to be in the next county.

Jim
 
My club's pistol range is very informal. It's basically a hole that was bulldozed into the ground, with end and side berms constructed out of the material that was removed from the hole. It's about 50 yards wide and 80 yards long. At the end opposite the berm is a concrete slab and a couple of picnic tables. There are "live fire" signs posted all over the place, all around the range. There's no range officer, no fence, and hardly anybody there, ever - 80% of the time, I have the place to myself.

One day, my son and I were shooting and within a few seconds of finishing finishing off a magazine in my 1911, a hiker comes walking over the berm! At the time, my son was standing there, aiming a Model 10 at the 25' target stand when the guy came over the berm. My son saw him, and handed me the revolver. The guy came over to talk to us and before he could get a word out, I let him know how close he came to getting himself killed.

He said he heard the shooting and wanted to see where it was coming from. :what:

I told him that he was trespassing, and asked him to leave, so he started walking back towards the berm! I suggested that he use the road instead because there was less of a chance of catching a stray round in the back of the head.
 
I was a guest at a range Friday (the day before blackpowder deer season opens). There were several hunters there sighting in their rifles.

Several hunters decided to sweep the line with their rifles. One did a 360 with his rifle while swabbing it out as he chatted with his buddy.

Comments were made and all that silliness stopped.
 
I was out at the range a few times ago, shooting away on the pistol side..range is hot...i look over to see some guy walking back from downrange on the rifle side, on a totally hot range. Suicidal anyone? Apparently, he really needed to put up another 8" shoot-n-c, because he couldn't hit any of the 3 he had already put up at 50 yards with his SKS. And he needed to reeeeal bad.
 
Having a flag or a horn just makes people think that they can safely use that side of the hill when those things are absent. That means more tresspassing, and inevitably someone will use the range without raising the flag or souding the horn placing people at more risk than the would have been at before. A fence would be the best idea, but expensive.
 
Shooting bullseye a couple months ago and a guy walked on top of the berm behing the 50 yard line. Granted he was about 20 - 30 feet above the fire level but still!!

We told him about it. He said it looked like we could hit what we aimed at so he wasn't worried. :rolleyes: There's only so much you can do.
 
HTML: 
c_yeager Having a flag or a horn just makes people think that they can safely use that side of the hill when those things are absent. That means more tresspassing, and inevitably someone will use the range without raising the flag or souding the horn placing people at more risk than the would have been at before. A fence would be the best idea, but expensive.

Actually, we do have flags on both the pistol and rifle ranges and both were up. ~ And the trash barrels were alight and giving off smoke signals to beat h:evil:ll .
THe pistol range is surrounded (on the 3 dangerous sides) by a 14 foot earthen berm and the rifle range is bordered by thick brush, trees and muskeg (goopy soupy slop with no defined bottom), so it takes a real effort to get there...I will try to post pix...
100_0414.JPG
THe picture is from the rifle firing line. A friend with my M1A... You can see the earthen berm to his left and the woods further past that. He is (of course) aimed down range.
 
As long as as many practical and obvious warnings are posted, and a strict record kept, there is some measure of liability protection. The only other thing you could do is post marshals on both sides of the property line downrange when the range is in use. Those who ignore all these should not be a cause for much more concern - you can only do what is reasonable.

--------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
I was at the pistol range the other day and someone whom I have never seen about 17 had his little brother about 14 started to shoot. As I was firing he decided he needed to put up another target and walked down range, while I was firing. I told him not to do that and guess what 20 minutes later he did it again. I don't understand some people.
 
Having a flag or a horn just makes people think that they can safely use that side of the hill when those things are absent. That means more tresspassing, and inevitably someone will use the range without raising the flag or souding the horn placing people at more risk than the would have been at before. A fence would be the best idea, but expensive.
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I agree. They said they saw the signs, but wanted to tempt Darwinian fate anyway. :rolleyes:
 
The range I belong to has red lights that are used during a cease fire or when someone is down range. Any other time during daylight, the range is hot.
 
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