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H335 is Temp Sensitive

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Lee Q. Loader, Nov 20, 2019.

  1. Lee Q. Loader

    Lee Q. Loader Member

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    I accidentally proved to myself what everyone else already knows: H335 is temp sensitive.
    I was out in the desert chronographing some loads and I decided to run my H335 load again. Not sure why I even did it because I already know that the 50 grain Nosler SP runs at a very consistent 2970 FPS.
    To my surprise, five shots averaged 3040 FPS. I know its the same powder lot, but then I realized that the rounds had been sitting in direct sun for about a half hour. It was a cold morning, about 45 degrees but I think the sun was the difference.
    I also noticed that my groups weren't as tight as the last time.
    Before this trip I didn't see any reason to use anything but H335 in .223. If I decided to change to something less sensitive, but wanted to stay with a spherical powder, what would be best?
    To answer my own question, I'm thinking TAC. I have a ton of the 50 grain Noslers so that will be the main bullet I load for a while.
    What do you all suggest?
     
  2. Blue68f100

    Blue68f100 Member

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    TAC is what I use for most of my 223R loads in the 52-55 gr range. I've used it with the 69gr SMK but get better accuracy with Varget. I use CFE-223 for my general plinking powder. CFE group size is about twice as large as TAC. The one thing I will say is TAC is one of the finest ball powder I have ever used. Using it in my RCBS RM1500 it throws power all around it. In a std dispenser it meters very well as most ball powders do.

    TAC will change with temp as most powders do to some degree. If your in the accuracy node it still shoots accurate in a broad change in temp.
     
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  3. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    According to Hodgdon, H322 is an "extreme powder".

    https://www.hodgdon.com/h322/

    I do not have any equipment to measure chamber pressure, so I can't tell if an extreme powder maintains the same pressure curve from -40 F to +120 F. What I can say, I have blown primer pockets with extreme powders, just like regular powders. So, if I can't see it, it is there?

    To the op, I would not be that concerned about a couple of extra feet per second as long he is not having blown primers and sticky extraction. If the load is too close to a maximum, the first and best thing to do is cut the loads. I developed a number of loads at 70 F that shot well, were within book velocities, only to have the things blow primers at 90 F weather. If that happens, you cut the loads until the primers stay in the pockets.

    And I don't pay extreme for "extreme powders". I will buy the stuff if it is on sale and is a better price.

    I don't like ball powders, the things turn nasty very quickly. If you hit a sweet spot they are great. Stick powder seem to have larger sweet spots. All of this is probably nonsense and seeing patterns that don't exist, but I do prefer stick powders. Stick powders are bulkier and fill the case better and I think that is better than having air spaces. If you cannot live with H322, try Varget. It was a staple with 223 AR15 service rifle shooters. Works with all the bullets.
     
  4. climbnjump

    climbnjump Member

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    Yes, but I think the OP was using H335, not H322?
     
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  5. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Unless the powder is specifically made to be temp insensitive most powders will show an increased velocity if the cartridge is sitting in the sun for any length of time. Of course some will show more sensitivity than others. H335 is somewhat temp sensitive but it's not all that bad.
     
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  6. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    Opps!

    Still Varget is a great powder in the 223 Rem.
     
  7. Captcurt

    Captcurt Member

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    Unless we are talking benchrest or varmint guns I wouldn't worry about it. I checked one of my old Hornady manuals that had the drop tables. The majority of the standard calibers when sighted at 200 yards had only a 1" to 2" variation at 300 yards when the velocity was plus or minus 200 fps. I looked at 30-06 with 180 gr at 2800 and 2600 fps and a couple of other calibers. I don't know about you but I can't hold the crosshairs within 2 inches at 300 yards from field positions. I'll stick to my IMR-4350.
     
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  8. jmorris

    jmorris Member

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    What distances are you shooting and how different are your group sizes between you knowing they were “very consistent 2970” to 70 fps faster?

    how does the bullet do above or below those speeds?

    How much does POI change from POI between the two?

    What’s the job you are using the 50gn SP’s for?
     
  9. mrawesome22-250

    mrawesome22-250 Member

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    Benchmark is less temp sensitive with an almost identical burn rate to H335.

    It is a very short cut stick powder and flows very well through a powder measure.
     
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  10. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    How did you determine both have almost identical burn rates?

    Looking at the data on the Hodgdon site doesn't show that. They are close but not that close.
     
  11. 35 Whelen

    35 Whelen Member

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    If you'll notice, Hodgdon's Extreme line of powders are single base powders. Single base powders are normally extruded and are less sensitive to temperature changes than double base powders. H335 is a double base powder. Double base powders are normally spherical or flattened ball.

    35W
     
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  12. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    Another vote for Tac in 223. It has been my best performing propellant for year around use. Oddly enough I first tried it due to it's lower cost.:thumbup:
     
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  13. Lee Q. Loader

    Lee Q. Loader Member

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    I think you're right. After more thought, I see no reason to change powder based on this experience.
    For me, with the 50 grain soft point, it was not hard at all to find an accurate load.
    Best of all for me also is that H335 is the least expensive rifle powder I know of.
     
  14. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Varget. If a 223/5.56 load isn’t shooting well with Varget, there’s likely something wrong with the rifle - plus, Varget is exceptionally temp stable.
     
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  15. slowr1der

    slowr1der Member

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    In another big Varget fan. I get significantly better accuracy than I'm able to with H335. The downside is that it doesn't meter as well.
     
  16. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    I use a lot of H335 for loading .223 ammo for a MSR but I do like Varget and a 55gr Sierra bullet for my Howa 1500 bolt action rifle. It produces sub 1/2MOA groups @100 yards.
     
  17. Chuck R.

    Chuck R. Member

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    Another vote for Varget.

    I still use H335 & TAC for my 3gun loads, but they're normally used within 45-90 degree range (spring-fall matches) and on targets that don't require a high level of accuracy due to size and distance. Also this entails a lot of rounds, produced on a progressive press, so a ball powder is called for.

    My .223 varmint loads and precision stuff is loaded with Varget.
     
  18. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    That's kind of my thought. I don't know... is there a ball powder out there that isn't temperature sensitive? ...it's the tradeoff you get for an easy metering ball powder vs extruded powder.

    I shoot a lot in southern NV... I've shot in temperature ranges from the mid 40's to a measured high of 118F (it was so hot, I needed gloves to pick up the brass even after 1/2 hour on the ground.) There are velocity differences even with factory and surplus ammos, let alone my handloads. I use H335 for my 5.56mm handloads... it works very well. If I had some gnarly bolt action or something like that... it's likely I would be using something other than H335... but then I would be hand measuring each charge, etc, etc...
     
  19. Slamfire

    Slamfire Member

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    You touched on a point upon which I am going to get on my soap box. Just what are the differences between powders?. Outside of the obvious physical differences, ball/stick, short cut/long cut, just what do you know about the burn rate characteristics?

    What you know is some burn rate chart, which is about as useful as measuring to the ten thousandth's with a yard stick. The ranking is quite mysterious, but given within a class, lets say something I am familiar with IMR 4895. Or 4350. Specifically what are the differences in the pressure curve between IMR 4895/H4895/AA2495/AA2520? Or IMR4350/H4350/AA4350/short cut 4350? What is the difference between Titegroup and Bullseye? What do you know outside of what industry tells you? What if the pressures curves (on average) were within 5%, or 3%,or 1%, or 1/2%, if all the different brands within a class have pressure curve differences less than 3% different from each other, is that difference significant. Significant enough for all the hoopa about that powder? Or proof that one powder is vastly better than another with a 3% pressure curve difference? I think there are well over 100 powders in the burn rate chart, and I am getting to believe the biggest difference (in classes, whatever that might be) is mostly advertising. We really don't have the information to allow us to make good judgements. We have advertising in the print media, anecdotal information and our own limited experiences. Most of which is inconsistent, confounding, and contradictory. And that is as industry wants. It is as Noam Chomsky says" the purpose of advertising is to create ill informed consumers who make irrational choices.
     
  20. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    @Slamfire, well written, I can't agree more.
     
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  21. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

    Well done. You’ve made my morning.
     
  22. Charlie98

    Charlie98 Member

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    ...and if you really want to leak your brains out of your ears... factor differences between lots of the same powders... or different primers with the same powders... or different burn characteristics between a 80% load and compressed. The list goes on.

    I used to be uber OCD about powder charge weight, particularly in rifle cartridges... until I realized the difference in .1grn of powder was less than .5% of the total charge weight. I had to go to councilling for it, and I'm still on medication... but I've gotten over the fact that my shooting abilities will never show the difference in a 1% or less difference in powder weight... given allllllll the other variables involved in both handloading ammunition and even factory ammos.
     
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