H335 Powder and .223

[5thSFGroup]

I have loaded some 60 grain and 75 grain bullets using H335 powder. On the 60 grain bullets, the load called for is approximately 23. When using those rounds they appear way too hot. I have lowered them down to 21.5 grains and they seem to be much more civilized. In fact the bottom end of the load was listed at 23.4 I think and went even higher. Nutz on that...way too hot.

I lowered the 75 grain rounds to 19.5. Does anyone have any comments, observations or wise cracks that they would care to share?

They are being used in an AR and the barrel is a 1 in 7. Thanks

 

[rcmodel]

Something is amiss somewhere.

Both your loads are well below recommended starting loads in both Hodgdons and Lyman #49 manuals.

How exactly are you measuring pressure or velocity to even have a clue how hot the recommended loads are??

rc

 

[NCsmitty]

Have you shot factory or milsurp ammo? If so, what did they act like?

As rcmodel mentioned, something doesn't sound right. Double check your scale zero, and verify the charge weights.



NCsmitty

 

[snuffy]

On the 60 grain bullets, the load called for is approximately 23.

Approximately???¿¿ There's no approximate loads in any loading manual. There's a bunch of SPECIFICloads. Nothing involved with reloading is approximate.

I routinely load 24.0 H-335 with 60 grain V-max Hornady's. Noting hot about it, of course those were worked up from beginning loads.

 

[5thSFGroup]

I checked this more than ten times. I am using an RCBS scale and a RCBS powder ispenser that has worked fine for all of my other loads. I use this scale on verifying all of my hand gun loads and they are fine.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Well, then, it comes down to your definition of "way too hot." What's the evidence? Primers flattening, velocity over a chrono, what?

The load range you're referencing is pretty routine.
/Bryan

 

[5thSFGroup]

Two primers blew. That is what started the concern. By the way, in the scientific community, all and I do mean all measurements are considered approximate. When I take a measurement, I use specific indicators and presume then to be accurate. I do not fudge on the readings....the term approximate is in compliance with scientific standards.

 

[Canuck-IL]

Well, as RC noted, something is amiss. Were they reloads? Federal brass for instance has a known record of soft pockets that begin to loose their primers upon reloading relatively earlier than other brands.

...the term approximate is in compliance with scientific standards

Without a tolerance provided that's just so much verbiage. Most reloaders load to +/- .1 grains altho some measure/powder combinations require a lot of checking to maintain that.
/B

 

[Rokman]

I have loaded up to 25.0 grains H335 with Nosler 60gr. btips with Win and Rem brass and CCI 400 primers in my AR's with excellent results.

 

[evan price]

First, what brass? Some brass is thicker or contains less volume and needs less powder. Second, how deep are you seating? Third- is your firing pin just too pointy?
That charge should be OK.

 

[Rokman]

I think you would be better served using RL15, TAC, or Varget with the 75 grain bullets. I know that they have worked well for me. Good luck.

 

[Ol` Joe]

You`re not loading Rem 6 1/2 primers are you?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree. something isn't right here. There are so many causes to primer problems it's hard to pinpoint on the Internet. I use H335 for most of my .223 ammo and never have a problem with blown primers. I have use CCI-450 primers (SRM) and CCI #41 NATO primers but mostly standard CCI-400 primers without incidence.

 

[snuffy]

Two primers blew. That is what started the concern. By the way, in the scientific community, all and I do mean all measurements are considered approximate. When I take a measurement, I use specific indicators and presume then to be accurate. I do not fudge on the readings....the term approximate is in compliance with scientific standards.

You speak/write in generalities. Two primers blew." How? Did they pierce? Or fall out of over-expanded pockets? What brand and number primer? What make of brass?

You come here looking for advice, but give almost no specific data.

As for the scientific community accepting approximate measurements, how did we get to the moon and back without being damn sure of their measurements? Any powder measure is set by the factory to be pretty darn precise. It's up to the user to make sure it's set up correctly. Then the best bet is to get some check weights to verify that it's zeroed. Then when we're discussing powder charges, we write 23.0 grains, not just 23! 23 what? Clams?

 

[5thSFGroup]

I am using military brass (un used) and CCI military primers. The two primers that blew actually locked up the bolt. One of the brass rounds shattered at the base. I took the remaining rounds apart and measured the powder in them to be sure that they were not overloaded. They were loaded at the same time as the problem rounds and were in compliance.

Evan, I think you might be correct. The military brass is thicker. I believe that might be a good call.

 

[5thSFGroup]

Also, the the scientific community does not "accept" approximate measurements, it uses the term "approximate" because there are no absolutes in science except Kelvin, which is absolute zero degrees.

 

[Historian]

I have been loading 60g Noslers over 23g of H335 for several months now for my Varminter and getting very good results. I have never had the feeling that the load is too hot and my cases don't show any signs of overpresssure. BTW I am using Lake City brass and CCI small rifle primers.

Historian
____________
"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely undo the liberties of America than the whole force of a common enemy."
Samuel Adams

 

[rcmodel]

The military brass is thicker. I believe that might be a good call.

Military brass is simply not going to make below Starting loads blow primers.

You have something else going on you haven't discovered yet.

Keep looking, starting with the scales being off, (check weight test it)

Or powder bridging in your measure drop tube & dropping a light charge followed by a heavy charge occasionally. (inspect all the charges in a loading block before seating bullets in all of them.)

rc

 

[Canuck-IL]

...or it's not really H335. It happens!
/B

 

[5thSFGroup]

Thanks Canuck. I have just gone back through a batch and inspected the powder level in each case prior to pressing the round into place. I will give it a try and see what happens. The powder is being dropped by an RCBS unit and my scale is a RCBS. I have checked it at zero. I have had no problems with my pistol rounds (I am using Clay powder in them). My .40 and .45 rounds function perfectly. I have another container of H335 and may open it to see if there is a difference.

Thanks again to all for the suggestions. It is appreciated.

 

[rcmodel]

One of the brass rounds shattered at the base.

So, did your gun blow up, or what?
That is almost always what happens when a case completely lets go.

Were it not for that statement about shattered brass? I would wonder if you are only getting primers backed out of the case, and calling them "blown" primers?

Primers backing out is an indication of too low pressure, not too high.
That would be in keeping with your "below starting load" pressure.

Without full chamber pressure to force the case back tight against the bolt face and reseating the primer, they stay backed out.

rc

 

[5thSFGroup]

The rifle did not blow up but the brass did shatter on one. The primer blew back out on the one just prior to the shatter. I had fired 15 rounds from the same loading batch without incident. The first incident blew the primer back. I thought that was a freak incident. I cleared the rifle, saw no damage and the next round shattered the base. I took the remaining rounds apart and checked the powder weight. They were all at the recommended settings. It is possible there was a bridge powder load problem...the low load blew the primer and the second load was hot and blew the shell. What do you think?
I replaced the bolt for safety. Those loads were at the recommended settings. I lowered them after that.

 

[rcmodel]

Still having difficulty understanding what you are calling a "blown" primer.

Do you mean it just backed out of the primer pocket and was sticking out but not leaking?

Or actually blown, and leaking hot gas with resulting smoke, shock & awe?

but the brass did shatter on one.

Like to see a picture of that.
Brass doesn't shatter from a high-pressure load.
It deforms with enlarged loose primer pockets, and finally with enough over-pressure it melts, leaking high-pressure gas into the action.
That will almost certainly result in blowing up a gun.

At the very least on an AR-15, it would have to blow the magazine out and vent gas out the bottom of the mag well.
There is no other place it can go.

rc

 

[5thSFGroup]

smoke, shock and awe

 

[rcmodel]

the low load blew the primer and the second load was hot and blew the shell.

Well, I guess, maybe.
But a low load should not have blown a primer, just backed it out some.

A serious over-charge resulting from a light powder drop the time before could certainly explain the KaBoom though.

rc