Had a discussion about the legality of bringing guns to Church the other day

[Aguila Blanca]

I do happen to believe it should be left to each church to decide, but I believe that not because of any mythical "freedom of religion" provision. The Constitution does NOT explicitely call for any separation of church and state. The Constitution says that the Congress shall not establish any State religion. That's it. In other words, the federal government may not decide one day that henceforth Buddhism is the "official" religion of the United States.

That's all it says.

But the Bill of Rights also says we (the People) have a right to keep and bear arms and that this right "shall not be infringed" (meaning, shall not be infringed by the government, state or federal). On that basis, the government cannot tell me I cannot carry in a church. If the governing body of the church decide they don't want me to carry in their church, that is their right ... just as it is my right to then seek out a different church.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

More likely due to the two screws that came very publicly loose at NASA.

Two?

I know about the astronette who tried to off her ex-BF's new GF, but what was the second?

 

[Texasbagman]

This is the first Google article I found on it.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/21/nasa.evacuation/index.html

 

[deck52]

In Missouri, a CCW permit holder can carry at a church, but must have permission from the senior pastor/priest/rabbi/head honcho of that church.

 

[jeepmor]

blah, blah, blah.

No don't carry sign, no worries.

 

[Thin Black Line]

Might be a good idea to arm the caretaker:

http://www.newsobserver.com/nation_world/story/576280.html

MOSCOW, IDAHO - A gunman went on a shooting rampage in this quiet college town late Saturday night, killing a police officer and wounding a sheriff's deputy and a civilian before taking refuge in a church.

Early Sunday, SWAT units stormed the church and found the bodies of the gunman and another man, who was thought to be the church caretaker.

 

[Kentak]

Freedom of religion has nothing to do with the OP's original point.

If the law is silent on the possession of weapons in church, then it's not a matter of law. If the church has no policy about CC in church and the pastor has not expressed an opinion about it, then it seems one would feel free to CC in church. If the church has a policy, or the pastor has expressed a preference for no CCW, then it's a matter of respecting that policy, or not. If you are so concerned about the miniscule chances of needing a gun in church, then carry, but keep it *well* concealed to avoid an embarrassing situation for yourself.

Some states allow private entities to post and ban CCW. If the church is posted, then it's a matter of law. In Ohio, places of worship are off limits unless permitted by the church. To be legal, one would have to ask about the policy, otherwise it would be prudent to assume no CCW.

One always has the choice of obeying the law, or not. Just be willing to accept the consequences.

K

 

[Meathook]

I don't generally carry at church however....

At our church several years ago (I was not there that day) apparently the mentally unstable husband of a woman in the church walked in and started addressing the church from the back and was eventually escorted out without incident.

Several months later upon hearing things were flaring up again and he had made some threats I carried for awhile to church. Just to be safe.

There are always those that are mentally unstable or distraught or off their medication. There is no legitimate reason to limit where someone carries in my view.

 

[armoredman]

There is no separation of church and state, merely that,

Amendment I: Freedom of speech, religion, press, petition and assembly.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

There is a Senate and House Chaplains, and sessions of both national and state legislatures havealmost always opened with an official prayer.
As for the House of the Lord? The restriction on arms came NOWHERE in the Bible, but from the Roman Catholic church, who was trying to keep greedy types in the Dark Ages from stealing the gold altar plate. This is why the pantheistic Vikings LOVED looting churches.

Jesus even reccomended his disciples sell thier cloaks to buy a sword.

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

I think this is a matter that needs to be worked out between you and your church. Presumably, they would ask you to leave if you repeatedly got up and started offering opinions on various issues in the middle of a sermon. If they ask that you not bring firearms inside, then that is their right, too.

If the philosophy of your church vis-a-vis self-defense doesn't match with your own, you probably shouldn't be going to that church.

But there is no need for government regulation of this issue one way or another.

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

I ain't no lawyer or nothin', but I'm not sure how a bar on the Federal government regarding the establishment of a religion (and later incorporated to the several States via the XIV amendment,) fails to establish a separation of church and state.

Particularly in light of some of the terms of the Treaty between the U.S. and the Barbary State of Tripoli (in the first War on Terror,) in 1796, when (one would expect,) the people responsible for negotiating the Treaty were a lot more familiar with the "original intent" of the framers of the Constitution than today...

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Enjoy!

 

[PennsyPlinker]

If we're going to bring guns into Church for protection in this country, I need someone to explain to me how we're crossed into the time of requiring the sword in one hand and the trowel in the other?

I think the question needs to be reframed. Why wouldn't I carry a gun in church? All of these "can I carry a gun when I go to [insert location here] questions" make me wonder about the people who worry about them and some of the reasons given for not carrying.

There are two places not to have a gun available:

1. In the shower

2. Wherever the law explicitly forbids it (and sometimes not even then).

If I and/or my family are mixing it up with other people, some of whom I do not know, there is every reason to have a gun, whether at a restaurant, mall, church, movie house, etc etc, so on and so forth, blah blah blah. I have my gun with me in church just like I have my Bible with me in church. I have to drive to church, I have to drive home. And when I get there, it is in fact, a publicly accessible building. People can and do walk right in. How am I supposed to know that some radical who hates Christians won't be the next one?

In case anyone hasn't noticed, the list of people who hate Christians is getting longer - well, it isn't really getting longer, it is just getting more vocal and active. Churches are ideal places for them to vent their rage, and there is nothing special about the US of A. We have plenty of homegrown whackos as well as imported ones who would be glad to knock off a few Christians to make their point. Don't think it isn't coming.

God is ultimately in control of my life. He is in control of everyone for that matter, whether you believe that or not. But, I do not want to stand in front of Him to explain why I did not manage the assets he gave me in a better way when it comes to protecting my family as well as myself.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I think the question needs to be reframed. Why wouldn't I carry a gun in church?

I guess that would depend upon interpretation of iron near the altar and therefore,
weapons in a sanctuary area.

This would be an interesting discussion of how religious belief systems under
the First Amendment intersect with the Second Amendment which the mods
here typically get very nervous about.

Suffice to say that's why some states that do not allow CCW licenses to be
generally applied in places of worship, do allow each place of worship
to make that decision for themselves regarding staff, worshippers, and CCW.

Example: I may not legally carry a firearm into the building, but should my Church
be providing some kind of post-disaster community assistance (food/medical)
you might very likely find me providing private security in and around other
parts of the Church building and grounds --under letter of the Church.
According to state law, I can even enter the worship area armed with the
permission of the Church. In all likelihood, though, you would find me actually
rendering the food/medical aid. In any case, for personal religious reasons I
will not be on the altar area with a firearm. I would literally have to be
surrounded for MZBs for that to happen --and it won't.

Suffice to say I'm not going to be packing iron (my Sig 226) when I go up for
communion during peacetime. Iraq out in the field was a different matter and
there was no tent that I could locate that had a holy of holies/sanctum anywhere.

 

[Owens]

Check your state laws

Texas-
PC 46.035 (Unlawful Carrying of Handgun by License Holder)
(b)A license holder commits an offense........
.
.
.
(6) On the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship



I am certain that there are variances by state, but check to be sure. I know we have a 2A right to carry, but unfortunately at times, we must do so within the framework of established laws, UNTIL those laws (unjust as some may be) are changed.

 

[Kentak]

There is no separation of church and state,...

You can say that all you want, but that doesn't make it true. What's scary is that you don't realize how dangerous that being true would be.

I have yet to have anyone refute this point: If the founding fathers had wanted to forge a bond between church and state, they could have very clearly done so in the Constitution. They didn't. They didn't mention god or Jesus once. They only made reference to religion twice. Once in the First Amendment in the no establishment clause, and again in the Article VI, in which they stated that there shall never be a religious test for public office. If those two references don't clearly indicate an intent that church and state be separate, well, then you have to believe the framers did a piss poor job in writing the Constitution.

Sorry, my post is off topic, but wanted to rebut.

K

 

[Robert Hairless]

The legislatures of most states have made churches just as safe as schools. As everyone knows, all a state legislature has to do is pass a law and it becomes reality. In time all state legislatures will pass laws banning disease, death, natural disasters, poverty, unhappiness.

As for churches, here's an article from the Washington Times for October 6, 2003:

Three die in church shooting

ATLANTA (AP) — A woman opened fire at an Atlanta church before services yesterday morning, killing her mother and the minister before committing suicide.
Congregants of Turner Monumental African Methodist Episcopal Church said Shelia W. Chaney Wilson, 43, was agitated when she came to the church.
She shot the Rev. Johnny Clyde Reynolds after he greeted her and was walking away with his back to her, said Atlanta police spokesman Sgt. John Quigley. Police believe Mrs. Wilson then shot Jennie Mae Robinson once in the head before turning the gun on herself.
One woman in the sanctuary at the time fled after the first shot was fired, and the other took cover behind a pulpit, Sgt. Quigley said. He said an assistant pastor came in after hearing shots and found the three bodies on the floor.
Assistant Pastor Christy Miller said the pastor had just finished teaching Sunday school and was walking through the sanctuary when he stopped to talk with Mrs. Wilson and Mrs. Robinson, 67.
Sgt. Quigley said officers don't know of any possible motive. Worshippers who knew Mrs. Wilson said she was disturbed and something set her off yesterday.
Geraldine Andrews, the pastor's daughter-in-law and a friend of Mrs. Wilson's family, said Mrs. Robinson recently took her daughter out of a mental health facility.
Cousin Nekeshia Burton, 17, said Mrs. Wilson had gone to the church early in the morning to talk to the pastor.
"Something wasn't sitting right with her," Miss Burton said, but she added that no signs suggested that Mrs. Wilson would become violent.
Debra Mitchell, a member of the church, said Mrs. Wilson had recently lost her job.
"We knew she has some instability, but we didn't know it was this deep," she said.
Many of the members remembered Mrs. Robinson, who taught Bible study, as a pillar of the church.
"She's just a sweet individual, always praying for other people, always doing missionary work," Miss Mitchell said.
The pastor was described as mild-mannered and generous.
"Everything a church should be, J.C. represented," neighbor Rosa Holmes said, recalling church drives to collect clothing and food for the needy, a scholarship program, and Christmas programs for underprivileged children. "He never got too tired to do anything."
The shootings happened before most worshippers arrived for church. When they got there and heard what had happened, church members sobbed and hugged in front of the building.
"We're such a loving church, a family church," the assistant pastor said. "We'll support each other through this."

 

[Robert Hairless]

Of course no one in his right mind would endanger the safety of people in a church, as the Public Broadcasting System reported on September 16, 1999. President Clinton said the shooting showed the nation should do more to safeguard its children. Mr. Clinton knows that the way to safeguard children is to make sure that guns are banned everywhere--not just in churches. Nobody needs a gun anywhere.

Church Shootings

Seven people were killed Wednesday night when a 47-year-old Texas man opened fire during a prayer service for teen-agers at the Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Tx.

The gunman, identified Thursday as Larry Gene Ashbrook of Fort Worth, shouted obscenities as he emptied three ammunition clips from a nine-millimeter, semi-automatic handgun at the gathered congregation.

Ashbrook, who authorities described as chronically unemployed and "very troubled," had six full magazines of ammunition left when he took his own life in a back pew at the church.

A sudden attack

According to police, Ashbrook also rolled a pipe bomb down one of the church's aisles. They said the bomb exploded, but caused little damage.

Nearly 150 teenagers were attending the service. Of the seven people killed, three teenagers and three adults died at the church, according to police. Another teen died later at a nearby hospital.

According to the Associated Press, seven others, ranging in age from 12 to 41, were injured in the shooting. Their conditions reportedly improved overnight.

Police searched Ashbrook's house in a Fort Worth suburb. According to officials, Ashbrook's house was in a state of disarray, with holes punched in the walls and furniture upended. Torn photographs and boxes of ammunition littered the floor.

"This has the appearance of being a very troubled man who for whatever reason in his own mind sought to quiet whatever demons were bothering him." FBI agent Bob Garrity told reporters Thursday.

The attack took place at 7 pm CDT, in a middle-class neighborhood on Fort Worth's southwestern edge.

"He walked … into the sanctuary … and was standing back kind of pacing and firing randomly at the people inside," Acting Police Chief Ralph Mendoza told reporters.

According to police, Ashbrook had no previous criminal record, but say his diary writings reveal Ashbrook was "a very emotionally disturbed person."

Public reactions

President Clinton said the shooting showed the nation should do more to safeguard its children.

"Yet again, we have seen a sanctuary violated by gun violence, taking children brimming with faith and promise and hope, before their time," he said. "[W]e know we have to redouble our efforts to protect our children. We know we have to act as if it were our own children being targeted by gun violence. We know that there is nothing we can do to assure that this will never happen; but there is a lot more we can do to assure that it will happen more rarely."

Texas Governor George W. Bush told reporters he did not understand what would motivate Ashbrook to commit such a crime.

"I don't know of a law - a governmental law - that will put love in people's hearts," he said. "It's hard to explain how hatred lurks in somebody's heart to the point where he walks into a church where children and adults were seeking God's guidance and shoots them."

For those who were at the service Wednesday, questions about Ashbrook's motive will continue to linger.

"It's horrible. There's no other way to describe it," Anita Barnard, a mother of one of the teens at the service told The Dallas Morning News Wednesday. She said her son Damon had just seen one of his best friends murdered.

"These were all wonderful kids," she said. "This is going to affect them forever."

 

[Robert Hairless]

For more examples of why there's no need to allow concealed carry in churches just Google "Church Shootings." You'll see why law enforcement officers don't carry guns and don't want to bother with them after they retire. Everyone is safe everywhere all the time. That's because there are lots of laws that prohibit anything bad from happening to anyone.

Feel good and have a great day.

 

[MD_Willington]

RE: Church in Moscow Idaho.

It is legal to carry in Churches in Moscow Idaho, I asked the same question at the same sheriff's department that was shot up Saturday/Sunday, this was asked last year. The employee that responded said that yes it was legal, but I should do a morality check on myself, as in "why would you need to"...

I think it is pretty aparent now as to why people would do so...

The church we attend is actually a few streets over, closer to campus, where recently other people have been mugged and shot.

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

pls delete

 

[wdlsguy]

It is legal to carry in a Texas church, unless you have been given effective notice under Section 30.06:

Texas Penal Code § 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
...
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
...
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
...
(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
...

 

[Owens]

Ooops!

Yep... Seems you are right. Sometimes it takes a little more reading. Thanks.

 

[romma]

If a State has a concealed carry law, what business is it of the Government to declare a church off limits? Way beyond the scope of Gov powers IMO...

 

[Crunker1337]

If one trained individual can bring a very useful means of protection into a church (a cop), why can't another (the OP)?