had an accidental discharge

[mlarkin_09]

I am trying to figure out what is happening. The 1911 pistol will discharge a round when I hit the slide release.
I was at my private range when it happened. I had shot a few rounds and had one round left out of the box so instead of loading it in the mag I just dropped it in the chamber and hit the slide release and BANG! So I headed back home to see if there was a pistol problem or a shooter problem. I put an empty brass casing in the pistol with a live primer and tried it again. I chambered the case and hit the slide stop and the primer ignited. The hammer is not falling forward to hit the firing pin. It seems as if the sear may be rolled.... maybe the disconnector?

Anyway, I have a gunsmith friend that will be taking a look at it tonight but I thought I might run it by the experts here and see what some of the first things to check might be.
I am a cz shooter and haven't been around the 1911 style platform much. this is the first time I have ever had or witnessed an accidental discharge and I hope it is my last. BE SAFE OUT THERE!!!!

 

[average_shooter]

1911's with internal extractors were never meant to have a round chambered the way you describe. You should always load from a magazine.

If the hammer isn't falling the only things I can think of are the firing pin stuck in the forward position, or the extractor is somehow putting enough force against the case to ignite the primer. Pictures of the primer strikes on rounds this happened with would be helpful.

On the rounds fired without the hammer having fallen, are there regular firing pin marks on the primer or is there some other mark?

Also, are these factory rounds or reloads that might not have the primers seated deep enough?

 

[kokapelli]

One possibility is the Firing pin possibly jammed in forward position due to dirt clogging the firing pin hole.

I had it happen to me only my pistol went full auto until the magazine was empty.

 

[mgmorden]

Both the previous responders are right in a way.

1. As stated, you should NEVER load a 1911 as you stated. The extractor isn't designed to snap over the rim of a round like that - it needs to come up from underneath from the magazine.

2. Having said that, the result of doing what you did is a worn or broken extractor - not a bang. There's probably something causing the firing pin to stick.

Overall, I'd take the gun to a smith and have him look it over. Home gunsmithing isn't what you want on something so critical as the gun firing when it's not supposed to.

 

[cor_man257]

Glad your okay, and I'm sure you must have just about soiled yourself.

Figure out whats wrong with your pistol and get it tended to. If this had been shooter error, you would have quickly been told that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only negligent.

In this instance, I would say it was actually accidental. The weapon did something unexpected. However, like previously stated the 1911's extractor is internal, it wont pop over a casing. So load from the mag next time. And see if you need a new extractor.

Glad your okay man. Just know it wasnt you, and dont let it effect your confidence around the weapon.

 

[Jim Watson]

You say you could drop the slide on a chambered primed case and pop the primer without the hammer falling?

Something is wrong in there and it is not the extractor, even though the method is not recommended.

What is the make and model of the gun?
There have been a lot of departures from true 1911 design and some of them might be in play here.

 

[1SOW]

"Pure Gesswork":
Is it possible "Firing Pin Inertia" could fire the not-yet-seated primer? When the slide stops, the FP keeps moving the very short distance necessary to fire a sensitive primer like FED, Magtech or Win. primer. When the slide is feeding another round it won't move forward quite as fast and the case is seated when the slide stops , so the FP doesn't have enough inertia to fire the next chambered round.

1911s with internal extractors were never meant to have a round chambered the way you describe. You should always load from a magazine.

The same is true for external extractors on 'tilt-barrel' pistols. CZ75s will also damage the extractor doing this. It took me three empty cases with primers and later, half-way through a USPSA stage, the extractor claw snapped off.
Duhhh.
Moving this to the gunsmith section might lead to some likely possibilities.

 

[skipsan]

As above. Sounds like a simple example of "slamfire", maybe made worse by a weak fp spring. If a 1911 will fire if dropped on concrete, why wouldn't it fire if the slide were slammed home on a loaded chamber. Surely the slide speed is greater if the slide were dropped over an empty or absent mag, than it would be if dropped from fou or five feet.

 

[average_shooter]

Is it possible "Firing Pin Inertia" could fire the primer?

It certainly shouldn't, though the thought occurred to me that the spring may be worn out or missing. But the firing pin spring needs to be in place to keep the firing pin stop in place, or everything would essentially fall out the back of the slide.

If inertial firing was possible it would never pass drop testing, so that shouldn't be the case.

My best guess is a dirty firing pin / channel that's causing the pin to stick in the forward position. Also, if this is the case, this is entirely preventable with routine preventative maintenance.

I'd still like to see pictures, if at all possible.

 

[1SOW]

The drop test is on a 'seated round'. This case was 'seated by being hammered in' by the slide.

 

[GLOOB]

Most likely, your firing pin spring is broken. Or it could be dumb luck that the firing pin got stuck right before that first incident, and it's still stuck but you haven't noticed.

If you can't find either issue, I'd certainly give a thought to swapping in a heavier FP spring and a lighter aftermarket firing pin. That's a scary thing to have happen.

It certainly isn't a rolled sear or a disconnector problem, if the hammer didn't drop. The sear holds the hammer back, not the firing pin. The disconnector resets the sear.

 

[PabloJ]

I am trying to figure out what is happening. The 1911 pistol will discharge a round when I hit the slide release.
I was at my private range when it happened. I had shot a few rounds and had one round left out of the box so instead of loading it in the mag I just dropped it in the chamber and hit the slide release and BANG! So I headed back home to see if there was a pistol problem or a shooter problem. I put an empty brass casing in the pistol with a live primer and tried it again. I chambered the case and hit the slide stop and the primer ignited. The hammer is not falling forward to hit the firing pin. It seems as if the sear may be rolled.... maybe the disconnector?

Anyway, I have a gunsmith friend that will be taking a look at it tonight but I thought I might run it by the experts here and see what some of the first things to check might be.
I am a cz shooter and haven't been around the 1911 style platform much. this is the first time I have ever had or witnessed an accidental discharge and I hope it is my last. BE SAFE OUT THERE!!!!

The pistol was designed for the military to be carried in holster with full mag and empty chamber just like it's improved (cheaper to produce) offspring with modular trigger system called TT-30 7,62x25. You are asking a lot of 100 year old design. I'm not big fan of 3rd generation S&Ws but if you're into metal framed hammer fired guns they're head and shoulders above 1911 as defensive carry pistols.

 

[average_shooter]

I'm not big fan of 3rd generation S&Ws but if you're into metal framed hammer fired guns they're head and shoulders above 1911 as defensive carry pistols.

Not to thread jack, but this comment makes me curios as to why you feel the 1911 is outdated?

The 1911 has been carried for many generations fully loaded, really without any more problems than any other system.

And really, the problem in the OP seems to be a stuck firing pin. That can happen in pretty much any platform, including rifles and shotguns.

 

[btg3]

...without any more problems than any other system.

Is that opinion or has a study been done to support this assertion?

I chatted up the manager of a range that had rentals. He reported that 1911s gave them more reliability problems than Glocks, other polymer autoloaders, and revolvers of the top 2 makes (SW and Ruger).

Also, my experience at IDPA is that 1911s have a significantly higher frequency of problems.

 

[Sport45]

If the firing pin was stuck out the gun would not feed very well from a magazine.

At the range you don't know the hammer didn't fall as it would have been reset by the slide coming back when the gun discharged.

As asked above, can you post pictures of the fired primers?

 

[marb4]

Whatever the cause, sounds like "always keep the barrel pointed in a safe direction" saved you hide so to speak. Why are the 4 basic safety rules so important? Guns are machines and all machines can malfunction. And yes, sometimes machine operators malfunction too.

 

[average_shooter]

If the firing pin was stuck out the gun would not feed very well from a magazine.

Note that he stated the problem occurred when he let the slide slam forward on a round already in the chamber, not feeding from a magazine.

As to the 1911 reliability, it's my personal experience and from reading anecdotal evidence for years. I've had 1911's, Glocks, Ruger GP100's, AR's, etc. all choke on bad ammo. Outside of that, with quality ammo made to the right specs all the aforementioned firearms run flawlessly, in my experience.

Some people think the plastic fantastics cause more ND's and prefer the manual safeties on 1911's. Some think that after 100 years 1911's are outdated and should be relegated to range toys and wall hangers since we've got polymer now. I guess it's all how you look at it.

I wouldn't necessarily take an abused range example as hard evidence. 1911's and Glocks have different maintenance needs and PM cycles. If that makes you think Glocks are better and the be-all-end-all, that's fine. But if you run a 1911 right they still run like any other firearm.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Have to agree with most of what's posted here.

1) Wrong technique and dangerous to the shooter and the gun.

2) Weak or broken firing pin spring.

There's a reason most of the spring makers include a firing pin spring in the bag when you buy a new recoil spring for a 1911. It's a safety issue.

 

[rcmodel]

I had it happen to me only my pistol went full auto until the magazine was empty.

Not with a 1911.

They will "fail safe" and jam after the first shot if the firing pin is sticking out of the breach face. The case rim has to be able to slide up the breach face as it feeds out of the magazine.

If the firing pin is sticking out, it can't.

rc

 

[Girodin]

I chatted up the manager of a range that had rentals. He reported that 1911s gave them more reliability problems than Glocks, other polymer autoloaders

One issue is that saying 1911 is a pretty vague description of the guns in question. 1911s run the gambit in quality, as well as what they are built for. I would agree the design generally is higher maintenance than the popular striker fired guns but a proper 1911 is a perfectly serviceable gun. I would not equate the issues of any given 1911 to the entire universe of 1911s.

I think it was Travis Haley who said that he equates 1911s to race cars and striker fired polymer guns to Camerys. He stated and I fully agree if there was a glock (or XD or M&P etc) on a table and a 1911 and he had to pick one up and go into danger he would grab the striker fired gun. If it was HIS 1911 and a glock he would take his 1911. A 1911 built with defense in mind is fine weapon and a lot of people that really do have to use their guns count on them for a reason.

 

[Sport45]

Note that he stated the problem occurred when he let the slide slam forward on a round already in the chamber, not feeding from a magazine.

Yeah, but apparently it had been shooting fine from the magazine before the incident. If the firing pin had been sticking out that wouldn't have been the case.

 

[mlarkin_09]

Sorry it took so long to reply I have been away.
The pistol is a springfield built by ED brown. So quality should not be a problem.
The pistol was completely torn down and looked at by two different gunsmiths. unfortunate for me both say that the pistol looks like it has little wear and had no broken parts or springs.

The cause of the problem as said above must have been a dirty firing pin channel.

I don't have any pictures of the brass as i was a little shaken and didn't think to pick it up before leaving.
I do have the test case and it just looks like any old pin strike.

Thanks for the advice on manual loading of the pistol. I don't normally load any pistol like that and will avoid doing it again.

 

[GLOOB]

That's very unfortunate.

I'd get myself a lot of primed cases and some ear plugs, a new extractor and a heavier aftermarket FP spring, and I'd sit down and do some safety testing. I'd load the gun (incorrectly) before and after FP channel cleaning, then a spring swap, and if that didn't fix things, I'd do something else about it, like a lighter firing pin. Once it was all sorted out, I'd finally replace the extractor, if necessary.

If none of that worked, I'd sell it and buy a series 80 with a FP safety. Maybe it's just me, but I don't want my guns to be able to fire unless I'm pulling the trigger.. period.

 

[1SOW]

I had shot a few rounds and had one round left out of the box so instead of loading it in the mag I just dropped it in the chamber and hit the slide release and BANG!

My bet is that he dropped the round in and it stopped when it hit the extractor. Then he released the slide that slammed the cartridge past the extractor and detonated it. The round probably was not seated when struck by the slide.

 

[kokapelli]

My bet is that he dropped the round in and it stopped when it hit the extractor. Then he released the slide that slammed the cartridge past the extractor and detonated it. The round probably was not seated when struck by the slide.

How does a cartridge detonate without specifically striking the primer?