"Hand over the money or I will kill you!"

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To narrow down this discussion I'll ask for the outcome of similar, real world, situations. Situations of a crook giving a threat of death (not just "I mess you up good!") if one does not comply.

I vaguely remember the stats that an armed response greatly reduces one's chances of injury. I'm sure it's on GunFacts. I'll look that up.

Thanks for all responses thus far.
 
SCKimberFan said:
we don't know how we will respond
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As an element of a debate, I agree. I've been scared many times.

However, I have read some articles by Jerry Vancook who addresses the issue of disparity of force. Meaning, your opponent has an H&K MP-5 and you have a Swiss Army Knife.

Mr. Vancook made one simple observation that truly changed my mind.

He wrote, "A bad chance is better than no chance at all."

I suppose 30 years ago if you gave the mugger your money he would simply run away. When they said, "I just want the cash," it was pretty much the truth.

I don't believe that idea exists at all today. I think 'bangers are one notch up from garden loam. They have no sense of honor or any of the qualities of mercy, and I'm in my fifties. Any major injury might seriously effect my health for the rest of my life.

I try to give good, honest advice set in reality when I answer a thread. However, I sincerely distrust any "person" who utilizes strong arm techniques and death.

I honestly believe that there are certain events--and this scenario is one of them--where it is prudent to kill the aggressor as fast as you can.

This is an exception, let me state that. Obviously, a guy cutting you off in traffic, a loud radio, or a loose dog in your yard would not apply.
 
Put your hands up, this is a robbery...
Give me your money or I'll kill you...
I'm going to do X number of sadistic things to you and your family right now...
etc...

Beep...

bang bang...bang bang...
Just like the buzzer...

Seriously now...train to utilize every tool at your disposal to stop the threat. Guns, knives, retreat, compliance, evasion, bare handed fighting, etc. All are tools that you should have at your disposal. You need to know when to employ each to survive.
 
Well since I carry no money, I can only assume that my only offer is my life. Since you intend t...BANG BANG BANG...ahem, take my life then I shall respond appropriately...
 
reply and a question

you know in my state (nc) it's against the law to use deadly force in public (*** right) .. atleast that's what the people over at the brady campaign say, I read it on their site. :scrutiny:

a little off subject but I need you guys opinion: what are some good ideas for a safe place to meet up with a stranger for a gun trade?? (besides our homes)
thanks :)
 
Bang, bang, bang...check potential for future threat...call 911...shove a dollar bill in his mouth...call neighbor to, "Come check this out"...continue whatever I was doing before being so rudely interrupted. May shovel some shop floor absorbant on the mess to help with cleanup. I have no tolerance or feelings for a thief.
 
what are some good ideas for a safe place to meet up with a stranger for a gun trade?? (besides our homes)
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I start by getting buyers lined up on forums I know pretty well. If I don't meet near work I'll meet by some public place I'm familiar with, but it hasn't been much of a problem in years of horse trading.
 
I it's my boss' money i would hand it over, if it's mine I would make an attempt to protect myself and my property.

If the guy has the jump on me then he gets the money.
 
I it's my boss' money i would hand it over, if it's mine I would make an attempt to protect myself and my property.

If the guy has the jump on me then he gets the money.
 
Another High Road hypothetical.

As is usually the case in other similar threads, there are far too many variables to give you a definitive answer. Lets face it, no two situations are alike!

If I had to make a broad generalization here, the weapon on the part of your attacker would be the defining factor, in so far as you have explained this hypothetical robbery... If a criminal is pointing a gun at you (felony menacing) and threatening to kill you, there is certainly an articulable reason for you to be in imminent fear for your life (in fact, that was this type of criminal's goal anyway... to gain your compliance by putting you in fear for you life... and potentially harming or killing you).

So, based on that, you could reasonably say that deadly physical force was legally authorized.

Again, there are no concrete answers, as there are far too many variables. A decision about whether or not to shoot in a given situation can only come from you... You alone will bear the psychological and legal costs of taking another human's life, and I can not tell you what you should do any more than anyone else on here can.

I suggest you look up your state's statute for the use of deadly physical force if you are seeking "black and white" legal answers!


And although this doesn't apply directly to the OP or his question, I will also add that I think many people need to shift their focus a bit more towards threat avoidance, rather than seemingly seeking out a confrontation (or at least dreaming of it). There seem to be more and more threads on this forum about "XYZ happened, and I almost shot someone", or "XYZ could happen, and I will shoot someone", or "what would happen if I shot someone for XYZ?", etc.

You are almost always better off in life if you don't put yourself in situations where you are likely to find such a threat (Example: strolling through the ghetto wearing your "money" suit at 3am while drunk). And, if you do end up in that situation, you will do yourself a lot of favors by perceiving that threat in advance, and avoiding it before it confronts you (Example: there's a group of gang bangers in that dark alley, perhaps I'll avoid walking past them)... A physical confrontation should be the last step to take, when all reasonable avenues of avoidance have failed (please note that I don't apply this avoidance theory to a person in their home!).

The possibility always remains that you can do everything right, and still end up in a violent confrontation with a criminal... Hence why I carry a gun, and advocate that others do so. But, let us not forget that we can often avoid these situations to begin with!
 
hand out the money.

make him feel like he won.

play victim.

then use the moment of distraction.
 
It is another depressing measure of what we have come to that we try to distinguish the malice of our attackers — not by whether they are armed but how quickly they pull the trigger.
 
I have managed a retail store in an inner city location for many years. I have stopped two armed robberies without having to pull my weapon. Eye contact & posturing is very important in those situations. Imagine starting to rob someone who is standing in a stance that signals he is ready to draw.
 
Put me in reasonable fear of life and limb, and it's as the Aussies say, "No worries, mate." YOUR worries are certainly at an end.

Here in the Cleveland area, a year or two back, a little nitwit named Arthur Buford tried to rob a guy on the lawn of his own home. It seems that young Arthur was out on parole for, wait for it.. ARMED ROBBERY. He got killed for his trouble, and pretty much EVERYBODY except the perpetrator's mutant "family" and friends applauded the victim's marksmanship. The general reaction of the community, including the immediate neighborhood was, "Bet he doesn't do THAT again."

1. When you threaten me with a weapon in order to try to take that which does not belong to you, you've already brought lethal force into play. It was your INTENT to instill in me a reasonable fear of life and limb. That's HOW you intended to ROB me. If you DIDN'T attempt to create that impression in your victim, you wouldn't BE a robber, nor would your victim likely give you anything except a sneer.

2. Why should I, without any factual basis, assume that somebody who's just threatened to kill me in order to take what's not his won't carry out that threat? And why should I risk MY life by assuming WITHOUT BASIS that he won't kill me anyway? I simply have endless contempt for people who tell me that I should trust in the good judgement and basic decency of someone who runs around taking things which don't belong to him by threatening to KILL people. What do I win if he DOES kill me to keep me from identifying him, or for no reason at all? I know what I win if I shoot him in the face, another day of life.
 
For example, if your neighbor says, "give me back my lawnmower, or I will kill you," you are justified in using lethal force, even though it is his lawnmower. He cannot use an illegal threat to enforce a legal action. You would still be justified in neutralizing the threat, if you believe you are in mortal danger.
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Not exactly. If he's on the other side of the fence with no gun, he can say whatever he wants. None of it will justify deadly force. If he's in your yard with an axe, that changes things.

State laws aside, there are three basic criteria for deadly force:

1) Intent. Do you know he's going to kill or seriously hurt you? Has he articulated that intention? Do his actions show you that?

2) Ability. Does he possess the means to hurt/kill you? Does he have a weapon? Is he a lot bigger than you (Disparity of force)?

3) Proximity. Is he close enough to do what he's saying? A boxer across the road threatening to beat you up has the intent and ability, but not the proximity. A guy with a gun is a more serious threat, since it's a ranged weapon.

If those three things are not present, then, state laws aside, you're not really justified in employing deadly force.
 
And, on another thought, Don't forget it's been pretty well proven that a guy 21 feet away from you with a knife can close that gap faster than you can draw and fire at him.

And, even if you hit him, he may have enough momentum/useful consciousness to stab you anyway.
 
I'm reminded of something an old platoon sergeant once told me. "Better tried by12 than carried by six". I shared his wisdom with my troops and sons through the years.
 
I have heard before that carrying a money clip with a wad of $1 bills makes a pretty good distraction. The people I heard saying this were talking about running away, but drawing a gun is another option.
 
Lawyer: So, Mr. X - you fired upon the deceased, because you allege that he threatened to kill you, and you were afraid for your life. Is that correct?

You: Yes sir, that's correct. I was afraid that he was going to kill me, so I drew my weapon and fired in defense of my life.

Lawyer: I see. What other indications did the deceased give, that he was actually going to follow through with his threats? Did he have a weapon? Was he approaching you in an aggressive manner?

You: No sir, he had no weapon that I saw. But he was approaching me in a threatening manner, yes.

Lawyer: So he had no weapon that you know of, but he was coming towards you as if he were going to do something to you.

You: Yes sir.

Lawyer: Did you order him to stop, or get away from you?

You: No sir.

Lawyer: I see. Let me review, to make sure I have all the facts - the deceased threatened you, but to your knowledge, had no actual weapon. You had your concealed firearm. After being threatened by the deceased, you failed to advise him to stay away, and you failed to attempt to escape. And then you gunned down the deceased.

You: Uh..correct..but...
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This is precisely why you don't take the stand in this case. Fifth amendment and all that.
 
hello all, i have a question at add,i live in a small town in pa,well last week i had a metal break,for bending metal ,stolen right off my truck that was parked in my yard,now if i would have cought them could i have shot them?now the break was just over a year old and cost me 1750 bucks,so its not chump change,another problem, we have in the summer is there are people that want to be gang bangers robbing people at gun point,the real problem is when you read the paper to see what crime were commited in our there are never any reported to the paper,now we live near the pa ni boarder and they come across the bridge,rod a business or someone then run back across the bridge,it was happening soo much that all the business were closing down by 6 at night,tuff to defend your self if there isent any informating letting you know what is really happening,we even have car jackings,so whats a person to do ?
 
There's anotehr element here.

Perhaps my desire for justice has been a bit strained over the past few weeks. On two occasions, we've had aggressors walk right into people's home, rob and kill them--all within the same city block.

Even if the homeowners had a mundane pistol--like a Ruger standard .22LR--I wonder if the attacks would have been stopped.
 
To narrow down this discussion I'll ask for the outcome of similar, real world, situations. Situations of a crook giving a threat of death (not just "I mess you up good!") if one does not comply.
Click to expand...

Seems to me that "I mess you up good!" is a threat of "great bodily harm". If I have reason to believe that the bad guy is capable of following up on that threat (most men and a lot of women could "mess me up good" barehanded), I can legitimately use deadly force.
 
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