handgun ammo in war

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Just a quick note, it wasn't Doolittle, but Billy Mitchell who was a strong proponent of air power. He also predicted the attack on Pearl Harbor... Now back to your original thread subject...

Not to disparge Doolittle, he lead the famous air attack on Tokyo off of the Hornet...

Second interuption over, now back to the thread...

I heard that the 230 gr came from John Moses Browning filing/grinding down a 45 colt round and 230 just happened to be the weight when he stopped. But I don't know if that story is real, but it is interesting.
JohnnyOrygun
 
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Back in WWI they used the best pistol round they had - .45 ACP. However, these days they use the superior 9MM. That's just the way it is!
 
Back in WWI they used the best pistol round they had - .45 ACP. However, these days they use the superior 9MM. That's just the way it is!
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Yep! Too bad the 9x19 cartridge was not around then.
 
The 9x19 was accepted into use by the Imperial German Navy in 1904 and by the Imperial German Army in 1906.

This cartridge did see much service in WW1.

The Germans used the famous Luger pistol chambered in 9mm as well as the first sub-machine gun used in combat, the Bergmann MP18.
 
IIRC, in the Phillippean (sic) insurrection, the round initially used was the .38 Smith & Wesson - a poor precursor to the .38 Special. If the Special is a poor performer, the S&W was infinitely worse lobbing its 158gr RN lead bullet at something like 600 fps. Yes, the Special was commercially available, but just like you can't stuff a .357 Mag into a .38 cylinder due to length, you can't stuff a .38 Special into a .38 S&W chamber...at least, w/out danger to one's fingers and hand.

Since we're tossing trivia in with our posts, Picher, OK, has the dubious distinction (among others) of having lead from its mines being used in every major US conflict in the 20th century since the Spanish-American war (including the Philippine insurrection, both world wars, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama and Gulf War I).

Q
 
A little off-topic but didn't the British originally use a 200 grain bullet in their .38 S&W cartridge?

And wasn't that 200 grain bullet outlawed by the Geneva Convention because it caused draconian wounds?
 
They used the 38 Colt, which was the precursor to the 38 Special. The 38S&W was a different round and is not related to the 38 Special except that both rounds have Smith and Wesson in their name.

As mentioned, Jimmy Doolittle was an air racer (flew the GB), Mitchell, who was already old during WWI, was the proponent of air power, sank the USS Alabama, among other ships, and got court marshaled for insubordination.

The power and effectiveness of small arms bullets is largely a minor issue as most soldiers are killed by other, generally exploding, means.
 
George Patton was unique soldier. His successful confrontation had noting to do with the magical 45-caliber. It had everything to do with preparation.
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The claim was made that the low-velocity .45 could not penetrate a horse. Patton proved that claim wrong.
 
It was the Hague Convention. Thanks for the info.

Ash: I'm confused, my old Webley and Scott Mark IV shoots .38 S&W.
 
They used the 38 Colt, which was the precursor to the 38 Special. The 38S&W was a different round and is not related to the 38 Special except that both rounds have Smith and Wesson in their name.
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That's what it was - the Colt cartridge, not the S&W. Had the name wrong, but the ballistics were close.

See, for discussion, on the .38 Colt: http://www.frfrogspad.com/colt1889.htm

Q
 
One glance at the history of WWI should make it clear that no international laws applied to the use of weapons.
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This statement is simply wrong. You may wish to read up on the Hague Conventions of both 1899 and 1907, as those international laws were certainly applied to the use of weapons in WWI. The fact gas wasn't included in those Conventions does not mean that they were ignored.

For further evidence of such regulation, look up the German protests of the US using shotguns during WWI as an alledged violation of the Hague Conventions.
 
This stopping power debate will never end. There was a show on the Military Channel last night about the top10 weapons for urban warfare. The calibers represented were all over the chart. 9mm.-45ACP-223-5.7x28-6.8SPC-6x35. The biggest criteria was stopping power. Top winner #1 choice was a weapon chambered in 45ACP. they said it won because of the 45's legendary stopping power. #2 winner was chambered in 5.7x28. Also because of ITS stopping power. 5.7 had great stopping power becaue of its ability to penetrate body armor through both sides. The top 2 winners in the stopping power class were the smallest and biggest rounds. My old M79 had REAL stopping power
 
The Brits used a version of the 38S&W, the 380/200, and the 38S&W has certainly been around for a very long time. I have a Hopkins and Allen in 38 S&W. But the 38 Special is evolved from the 38 Colt, not the 38S&W. That is why, by the way, those British revolvers that were originally 380/200 (38S&W) that were rechambered for 38 Special are not real safe as the 38S&W has a fatter cartridge.

I used to think the same, that the 38 Smith and Wesson Special was naturally an evolved 38 Smith and Wesson, but was corrected some years back.
 
Yep, old myths die hard.

"The .38 revolver was succeeded by the M1911 auto pistol." Nope. The .38 revolver was succeeded by the Model 1909 revolver, using the .45 caliber M1909 revolver cartridge. The M1911 came along two years later. In the famous tests of the Colt automatic pistol, the Model 1909 revolver was the control gun and kept pace, shot for shot, with the auto pistols. There were two failures of the revolver, both due to lack of powder in the cartridges!

Jim
 
We should point out that the M1909 was adopted because we had run out of Colt SAAs, which had been arsenal refurbished, barrels cut to 5 1/2 inches (the so-called "Artillery Model) and issued to units.
 
And add to that the model sent to the Phillipines was a version of the 1878 DA revolver.

I have often read that counter-terror forces use hollowpoints and in the case of places like Afghanistan where you are arguably fighting 'terrorists' that HP ammo COULD be allowed, even under Hague accords. Thing is logistically, we have a lot of FMJ laying around, easier to ship what we have.
 
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The Brits used a version of the 38S&W, the 380/200, and the 38S&W has certainly been around for a very long time. I have a Hopkins and Allen in 38 S&W. But the 38 Special is evolved from the 38 Colt, not the 38S&W. That is why, by the way, those British revolvers that were originally 380/200 (38S&W) that were rechambered for 38 Special are not real safe as the 38S&W has a fatter cartridge.

I used to think the same, that the 38 Smith and Wesson Special was naturally an evolved 38 Smith and Wesson, but was corrected some years back.
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I see, thanks for the info.
 
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