Handgun Caliber Debate Question?

[Skribs]

In one of the first Bond films his boss makes him carry a new gun because his old one jammed too much.

 

[Deaf Smith]

In one of the first Bond films his boss makes him carry a new gun because his old one jammed too much.

Yes and the .32 had stopping power "7.65 mm, with a delivery like a brick through a plate glass window."

Yep, bet your bippy!

Deaf

 

[RustyShackelford]

Old school vs modern ballistics ...

It's debateable but to me the fixed sight K or med frame .38spl 6 shot revolver was the standard in American culture for decades. Mainly up until the early 1990s or so.
Other calibers and handguns were signifigent too but not in terms of sales, use or familiarity.
The S&W model 19 .357magnum opened a lot of doors, it had the same size/specs as a S&W model 10 or 15(adj sights) but fired the potent .357magnum caliber(6 shots). The introduction of the 66 or stainless steel format made the S&W line even more popular with cops, private citizens & state troopers.
Many federal agents & officers routinely packed a S&W K frame 4" or 2.5" barrel 66 revolver for 20/25 years with no problems or complaints. Some even got commenrative model 66 revolvers engraved or decorated when they retired, .
Ammunition designs and the problems with power/feeding or misfires kept many gunners with either .38spl or .357magnum wheel guns.
Few shooters or cops ever really knocked the 125gr JHP .357magnum. It met the limits of recoil, muzzle blast, power and flash for most gun owners/officers.
S&W later rolled out the .41 magnum and larger .44magnum but neither ever replaced the .38spl or .357magnum for most handguns.

Another point that can be made re: change in ammunition designs/upgrades was the Platt-Matix incident in Miami FL 1986. I'm not going to get into the details here(there are plenty of forum topics on the subject ) but that FBI gun fight really led to serious changes in both modern semi auto pistols & ammunition styles. The rise of semi auto pistols in LE and personal defense led the gun industry to offer better pistol rounds too. Feeding, cycle and storage/wear all got better with semi auto rounds in the 1990s.
Today, 2015, there are far better choices for guns and rounds but the "old days" were okay too.

 

[Capt. Ct.]

In the early 70's the local department required you to buy your own revolver. It had to be a quality piece. This meant Colt or S&W. If you had a .357 mag. the first three rounds had to be .38 special. The next three was up to you. The debate was Python or Smith model 19.

 

[MistWolf]

...Back then, if you wanted six shots (in a double action), you had to at least have carried a K frame. That meant 38spl or 357 mag (not much of an argument about which is more effective). If you went up to a L Frame, you had more options but the most common was the 357 mag. Then you got into the N frames for your big guns (44, etc) and they were heavy for everyday carry (unless you are Callahan, of course)...

Actually, many officers carried N frames in their duty holsters. The S&W Highway Patrol was an N frame in 357 Magnum and was the revolver of choice for the California Highway Patrol as well as other agencies. While the Highway Patrol Model loaded with 357 Magnum ammo was the penultimate duty pistol and the envy of those forced to carry lesser sidearms, due to the sharp muzzle report, recoil and bright flash of the 357, many agencies, including the CHP, soon switched to issuing 38 Specials as duty ammo.

Back in the day, larger slugs were more effective than their smaller brethren. Bullet technology was no where near as sophisticated as it is today and there was no guarantee that an expanding bullet launched at handgun velocities would mushroom or if it did, penetrate deeply enough to consistently reach the vitals. In fact, for many decades the S&W Model 10 revolver loaded with round nosed lead 38s was the ubiquitous police pistol. The terminal performance of round nosed bullets is spotty at best, but large round nosed bullets perform better than small ones.

The Lee Jurras SuperVels made quite a stir when they hit the market, with the promise of better performance from higher velocities, lighter bullets and hollow point designs but as it turned out, bullet technology hadn't caught up to the marketing hype. SuperVels either gave spectacular expansion, broke up on impact, or failed to expand at all. It wasn't until the FBI set out to establish performance standards for duty ammo that the ammo makers started to really develop bullet technology that gave good terminal performance consistently. It's also the reason, in my opinion, that the terminal performance between the various modern duty calibers is for all practical purposes, indistinguishable

 

[Delford]

My LEO brother carried a .357 Smith & Wesson until just a few years before retirement. His dept. switched to .40 semi autos but he ankle carried the revolver for several years off duty. On his new post retirement job working for the DA he carries a G 22 and a G 26 on his ankle off duty. I don't think he ever shot any of them except to qualify. His older brothers shoot more than he does and enjoy it. My older brother has a retired CHP .38 spl. in great condition and I have .45 ACPs which shoot at least monthly.

 

[RustyShackelford]

N frames vs K frames ....

I disagree about the N frame point.
1000s of sworn LEPs(law enforcement professionals) used S&W model 10s, which is a K frame. I will agree that many US state troopers and highway patrol used the heavy model 27/28 6 shot guns but these .357magnum revolvers were neither light nor could every cadet or new officer shoot them, .
You could argue too that the US armed forces choice of the big Beretta 92F 9mmNATO pistol really jump started the nation-wide switch to semi auto pistols. The 92F then later the 92D & 92/96 G(decocker) versions became widely used by US police & state troopers from the mid 1990s to the mid 2000s. At that point many cops & federal agents went to Glocks or SIG Sauer pistols.
The Florida Highway Patrol issued the Beretta 96G .40 for several years then went to the Glock .45GAP line around 2010. The problems & dislike by FHP investigators & troopers led to the quick change of the Glock gen 04 22 .40S&W.
It's considered by many that the Glock 22 .40S&W is now the most common police sidearm in the USA.
Many firearm industry insiders say Glocks are in use by 65% of American law enforcement but Id say the new models from S&W(M&P) and SIG-Sauer are gaining more interest in 2015.

 

[mavracer]

The 357 came out in '35 I'm betting the first 357 vs 44 special debate started within seconds of the announcement.

 

[CraigC]

As early as the 1920's we had Elmer Keith making those determinations based on how they performed on game. Now we have hordes of internet experts who've never fired a shot outside the indoor pistol range making those determinations based on paper ballistics, whatever government agency adopted their favorite cartridge or just wishful thinking.

The 357 came out in '35 I'm betting the first 357 vs 44 special debate started within seconds of the announcement.

Keith determined that for factory loads, the .357 was superior to all others. For handloads, his heavy .44Spl loads still worked better.

 

[MistWolf]

I disagree about the N frame point.
1000s of sworn LEPs(law enforcement professionals) used S&W model 10s, which is a K frame

The S&W Model 10 being a K frame doesn't change the fact that many officers did carry 357 Highway Patrol models

You could argue too that the US armed forces choice of the big Beretta 92F 9mmNATO pistol really jump started the nation-wide switch to semi auto pistols

The adoption of the Beretta by the US military may have given the movement impetus, but the switch to autoloaders had already begun years earlier with the introduction of the original "Wonder Nine", the S&W Model 39

 

[StrawHat]

...Keith determined that for factory loads, the .357 was superior to all others. For handloads, his heavy .44Spl loads still worked better...

CraigC,

In all my reading of Keith, I do not recall him praising the 357 as you mention. I do recall his fondness for the 44 Special. Most telling though, was his favored factory round for use in self defense, the 45 long Colt cartridge, the Remington blackpowder round.

When his firearms were unloaded after his death, at least one of his 45s was found still loaded with the old blackpowder loads he favored so much.

Kevin

 

[Dframe]

The calibre debates are as old as the firearm. There has never been a definitive answer and never will be. To each his own.

 

[Smith357]

I tend to believe the only real consensus to be had then and now is, all handgun calibers suck, use a rifle.

 

[MistWolf]

The calibre debates are as old as the firearm. There has never been a definitive answer and never will be. To each his own.

This is so. The more I learn, the more I realize that while caliber plays an important role, it's also just a part of the solution. There is a balance and a trade-off to effectiveness. You have to understand what the trade-offs are, what you're willing to live (or die) with and accept responsibility for those choices

I tend to believe the only real consensus to be had then and now is, all handgun calibers suck, use a rifle.

This is so

 

[shootr]

I recall more debate over Colt vs S&W than caliber. .357 and .38 spl pretty much ruled the roost. Some liked .45 but pop consensus was they kicked like a mule and hitting the broad side of a barn was a challenge. I remember the first 9mm I saw or ever heard about was when my boss laid a BHP and keys to the biz on my parts counter. That was early 70s. Cops carried Thompsons or M1 carbines in their cars. Concealed carry was a snubbie. Thugs used revolvers, home brews &/or very short shotguns.

 

[RustyShackelford]

The 357 came out in '35 I'm betting the first 357 vs 44 special debate started within seconds of the announcement.

That's funny, .
Really S&W .357magnum revolvers started as registered magnums. They were rare and extremely expensive for the era. To own or carry a Registered Magnum Smith & Wesson was something special.

Also, I disagree about the IL State Police/S&W model 39 sidearm point. The state troopers started to carry the 9mm pistols in 1967. The Beretta 92F 9x19mm didn't come out until 1985 or so. That's a long gap of nearly 20 years. I don't recall 1000s of working cops ever carrying S&W semi auto pistols in the 1970s/1980s. The DA 4"-6" revolvers were still far more common in US law enforcement. I think it was more of a ammunition/bullet design issue than a caliber or model(brand) issue.

 

[TimSr]

The .41 Mag, in the 70's and 80's, was pretty much as unheard of by most people as it is now.

Funny thing about that is how S&W missed the boat on marketing. the .44 mag was marketed as a LEO gun, and was a big dud, until Dirty harry. It was never well received as a LEO gun, but found a following amongst handgun hunters who were a new breed at the time.

When the .41 Mag came out, it was marketed as hunting round for those who needed something bigger than a .357 with less recoil than a .44. Problem was those people were very few, and it wasn'y much of a niche. It probably would have been better received as LEO round had it been marketed as such. It also entered the fray very late in the revolver era.

From what I remember, the .38 spl ruled in LEO, but mostly due to individual department policy restrictions. Border Patrol, and some of the lucky depts got use use .357 which was preferred by most.

I'm trying to remember, but I think it was when the US military started looking at the Baretta 92F, and a Lethal Weapon movie showing the firing of hundreds of rounds without reloading that autos with lots of bullets started gaining favor.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Actually, when the guild ran the flintlock gun business circa 1800, there was little debate on caliber, as that was dictated by class of pistol/rifle.

Generally -
Pocket pistols - 32 bore and smaller. As the name indicates, small pieces that fit in a man's coat pocket, sold in pairs intended for ranges of a few feet. Often screw-off barrels and very small grips.
Traveling pistols - 16 to 24 bore. The next step up in size, these were always boxed pairs with the box sized so in could be carried in a coach usually in the owner's lap, intended for range of a few yards. Reasonable sized grips, but a short barrel.
Target pistols - 32 to 24 bore. Often referred to as "dueling pistols", Again sold in boxed pairs but sized so that they could place a ball out to 20 yards with a fair degree of accuracy. Long barrels, full sized.
Horse pistols - 29 to 26 bore. Military weapons for mounted troops, again always in pairs, not necessarily accurate, but very powerful. Carried in "pistol buckets" on the saddle pommel, normally under the saddle cover.
Naval pistols - 32 to 24 bore. Military pistols for shipboard use, these have longish barrels and extras like belt hooks and captive ramrods. The gun industry always sold in pairs, but shipboard issue, might be singly as required.

Carbine bore - 18 bore
Musket bore - 12 to 10 bore

Fowling pieces - 20 to 12 bore

This classing by size was generally a result of the size of the ignition mechanism and the inability to drill a barrel hole in something with better accuracy than 0.010".

 

[Damien45]

IMHO The debate rages based on 3 factors:

1) Marketing. Those selling need you to buy. That includes buying into the "best caliber available".

2) Those folks who are new to shooting. Like many, they are reading everything they can to find what is right for them. Since they do not know from experience, they are reading the articles, forums and wikiidiots for their knowledge. I can see how, with today's choices, it is overwhelming. In an attempt to narrow down the field, said new shooter types into google "which caliber is best" type search.

3) The individuals who are on their way to gaining that experience, but still need to justify the caliber they purchased. Until we have shot every caliber we can, through all the guns we can, we do not know what works best FOR US. Self defense is such an individual entity. I live in a somewhat rural environment. I don't need high capacity to "fend off a mob", but I may need a bit more punch for larger animals.


I can control a 9mm fast, and a .45 1911 equally fast, but I'm not as consistent with .40SW yet. Mostly because those are the 2 calibers I have shot the most in my life. I can sling .357MAG rounds from my 586 pretty steady, but not as fast as my 1911. That is mostly a function of the revolver not getting shot as frequently. Like most of the folks here seem to have said, it isn't the caliber of the round, but of the skill that matters.