Handgun purchase question, with a twist...

[NavyLCDR]

Let's say two residents of the same state go hunting or to a shooting competition. And let's say these two buddies are from a state that regulates private handgun transfers such as California, Illinois or Pennsylvania. And let's say these two buddies are hunting or compteting in a state that does not regulate private transfers such as Wyoming.

And, let's say, one person really likes the gun the other person is using and makes an offer the owner cannot refuse, so he sells it to him, right there on the spot.

So, what we end up with is, say two California residents in Wyoming, one California resident sells his handgun to another California resident and the only action that takes place for the sale is the exchange of cash and gun and maybe a bill of sale/receipt. (or the two parties could be from Illinois, New York, Pennsylvania, etc).

Anything illegal about that, assuming both are legal to possess firearms, of course?

 

[Bailey Boat]

The provisions of the resident's state should apply regardless of actual location. BUT... I was home last night so its been a few days since I stayed at a Holiday Inn......

 

[TexasRifleman]

Interesting brain teaser. I have no clue so I'll put my guess...

Long guns I'd guess it was OK.

Handguns I'd guess it was not, because I seem to remember it being illegal to import a handgun you purchased elsewhere into a state.

But I can't remember exactly how it's worded in 922 and I have to go get a haircut so I can't look it up lol.

Will be interesting to read replies here.

 

[Sam1911]

Wow. Interesting question. Now if they were making a long-gun purchase at a dealer in another state, they'd be bound to follow the rules of their home state in that purchase.

I've changed the situation completely, I know, by adding a dealer into the mix. But I'm just trying to find stable ground to stand on and start figuring.

But isn't the wording of the law usually something like, "A resident of the state of CA may only purchase a handgun from an FFL..." In that case, where the resident happens to be standing at the time wouldn't change the legality of the transfer, would it?

This has interesting implications. If this were legal, a person from MD, where an AK is a "regulated" firearm which must be transferred through a dealer (or the PD) and must be held up for a 7-day waiting period for a background check, could drive with his buddy to VA and transfer that rifle between them while standing in VA and then drive back home and it would be legal.

Interesting.

-Sam

 

[NavyLCDR]

The provisions of the resident's state should apply regardless of actual location.

But isn't the wording of the law usually something like, "A resident of the state of CA may only purchase a handgun from an FFL..." In that case, where the resident happens to be standing at the time wouldn't change the legality of the transfer, would it?

Let's say that a person is from a state that has a maximum speed limit of 65 miles per hour. Does that mean it would be illegal for that person to travel 75 miles per hour in another state that allows it?

A person from Texas, Oklahoma, or Florida is allowed only to carry concealed handguns with a permit. Does that mean they cannot open carry in a state such as Washington?

 

[NavyLCDR]

Handguns I'd guess it was not, because I seem to remember it being illegal to import a handgun you purchased elsewhere into a state.

Ooops. You are right TexaxRifleman because of the EXACT wording of 18 USC 922 (a)(3):

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;


Hmmmm. I always thought 18 USC 922(a)(3) was about residency and not about physical location, but I was mistaken. And the rule applies to handguns and long guns, but long gun purchases from out of state FFLs are exempted by 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Well, I learned something and was mistaken, how about that!

 

[Sam1911]

Aaaargh. That's the rub, isn't it?

I guess I'll turn the question around again: Under what law could these non-licensees be charged if they did this?

From the ATF's site:

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee’s premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

So, it would seem that a non-licensee can SELL to any elligible nojn-licenseee FROM his state.

BUT, a non-licensee may only aquire a firearm WITHIN his state.

Confusing. But that's just the ATF's FAQ paraphrase of the wording of the law. Can we read the actual text on line somewhere? Does it say "from" and "within" as I've quoted?

-Sam

[EDIT: Looks like you guys had it figured out while I was out looking!]

 

[NavyLCDR]

Now the law for the seller would be different. Because the law for the seller DOES deal specifically with RESIDENCY rather than location. So, I don't think the seller in this case could be charged with anything:

18 USC 922(a)(5):

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to
(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and
(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

 

[TexasRifleman]

And the rule applies to handguns and long guns, but long gun purchases from out of state FFLs are exempted by 18 USC 922(b)(3).

Ahh that makes sense. After I posted I got to thinking, I know you can buy a gun out of state, people do it all the time.

So the trick is that it has to come from a dealer, and must be a long gun it seems.

Gun laws are stupid

 

[Sam1911]

O.k. So if you're a real jerk, you can sell a gun to your pal, knowing that he just committed a felony by receiving it!

Sweet. File that little bit of info away for someday...


LOL!
-Sam

 

[TexasRifleman]

knowing that he just committed a felony by receiving it!

Apparently it's not even a felony until he takes it home. Bizarre

 

[Sam1911]

Apparently it's not even a felony until he takes it home. Bizarre

AH HA! The perfect answer to the deadbeat live-in brother-in-law! Take him out of the state, sell him a cheap Jennings, and then tell him if he returns home he'll be a felon!

BEAUTIFUL!

-Sam

 

[TexasRifleman]

Wonder if it works on mothers-in-law.....

I think you are on to something.

 

[Sediment]

Firearms may be loaned a few reasons, such as a hunting trip

 

[kanook]

A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

How long is temporary?

 

[wishin]

I think I follow the convoluted law, but as a practical matter, the two buddies return to their state with the same guns, only ownership has changed. Who's to know that a sale took place, absent a bill of sale? Or, for that matter, where the transfer took place. Illegal for sure. How does a state such as CA, or the BATFE, enforce this?

 

[TexasRifleman]

How does a state such as CA, or the BATFE, enforce this?

Usually this stuff only comes up accompanying some bigger crime. Guy A sells gun to guy B while hunting, guy B shoots his wife, ATF asks Guy A where the gun is (from the tracing) and he tells them he sold it to Guy B while hunting in another state.

Poof, one more add on charge.

So yeah, wouldn't come up really unless someone talked. But still a crime.