Handgun shooting stances

[shep854]

When shooting Isoceles, make sure you have your knees slightly bent, shoulders forward in a slight crouch, so your weight is over your feet. Too many shooters have their legs straight and shoulders back; this compromises their balance, making it harder to move and easier to fall back on your butt!!

 

[GMHAYESUSN]

As far as the navy at least on my boat and the shooting and security schools ive been to we teach mostly ISO for Security watchstanding and So we are presenting the part of our body most protected by our Kevlar but we allow either weaver or iso to be used to qual

 

[9mmepiphany]

I should add that my right arm then crosses my body forward past my left shoulder.
I guess it's an extremely modified Weaver Stance.

Of your right arm is touching your right pec, you'd be mostly in the Quell position...you'd have to drop your cheek onto your bicep.

Right arm straight, rotated to the left is how the Chapman differs from the Weaver

 

[Clipper]

For me, the Chapman provides superior vertical control, faster return to target, more rigid lateral control and MUCH better accuracy...Heck, I shoot offhand better than I do ISO!

My opinion is that shooting ISO is a definate handicap. Maybe that's why cops are usually such poor shots when I encounter 'em at the range?

 

[RBid]

Clipper,

If it's a handicap, Rob Leatham, JJ Racaza, and other world class shooters who have been doing so well with it are even better than we all realize.

 

[9mmepiphany]

For me, the Chapman provides superior vertical control, faster return to target, more rigid lateral control and MUCH better accuracy...Heck, I shoot offhand better than I do ISO!

My opinion is that shooting ISO is a definate handicap. Maybe that's why cops are usually such poor shots when I encounter 'em at the range?

World Class shooters have been using the Modern Isosceles to beat the best Weaver or Chapman shooters since the early 80s...so maybe it just takes more than 25+ years for the handicap to show up.

Believe me that in the Competitive Action Shooting World, the top shooter will use anything that will give them even the slightest advantage. Getting back on target faster would be huge...but it has been proven for the last 25 years that the Chapman doesn't

 

[MrDig]

Wow thanks 9mm now I know something I didn't know before. That's not sarcasm by the way I mean it. I haven't taken a lot of classes or studied defensive technique. I just go to the range and shoot and mimic some of what I see and ignore a lot more.

FWIW my foot position works for fencers and dancers very well and it seems to work for me quite well too. Maybe I should change my nic to twinkletoes

 

[9mmepiphany]

FWIW my foot position works for fencers and dancers very well and it seems to work for me quite well too. Maybe I should change my nic to twinkletoes

It is also one of the basic stances of karateka. It is mostly a linear power stance and is more applicable to big game hunting where shooting is mostly from a static position

 

[Striker]

Just a comment.

IMO, the real benefit of this discussion is to get people thinking and incorporating TTPs into their training/practice regimens and to get beyond the "Square Range" mentality.

While we may not agree on how to effectively manipulate a given platform, we are getting good information on how one might improve his/her skills, regardless (or in some cases in spite of ) of their chosen technique.

So, kudos to all.

 

[303tom]

One handed, gun side-ways, you know Gangster style...............LOL !

 

[RBid]

303tom,

True! For optimal gangster grip, you must also keep your elbow above the height of your wrist. That way, people know you mean business.


Getting back on topic:

A cleaned up presentation of the information here would make a great sticky. Stances, grips, thought behind each, etc. Pictures and video links help, as well. Seeing Travis Haley and Rob Leatham on YouTube helped me, quite a bit.

 

[Fotno]

I had read some years ago that Jack Weaver shot that way due to a previous shoulder injury that prevented him from extending his off side arm straight out. It was only the fact he was an excellent pistolero that people started to mimic him.

Watching film of Mr. Weaver shooting, I think it's likely that he created his stance for the same reason I use it today; because he's right handed, and left eye dominant. It's just far easier for me to line up the sights with my dominant eye using the Weaver stance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFq5Qkedl3Q

 

[1911Tuner]

I've worked with the Weaver, Chapman, straight ISO, and bent-armed ISO. Thus far, the last one seems to be best for me by a slight margin.

Of course, it's also been noted that you can practice what you please. When the first bullet cracks past your ear, it'll probably all go down the tubes anyway.

 

[Jim Watson]

The foot placement (stance) is the same...

If I am shooting a drill or standard or zeroing the gun from a static position on a square range, then I will place my feet to support my natural point of aim. But if movement is involved as for an IDPA or IPSC scenario or a hypothetical gunfight, then I expect to make the shot(s) from whatever foot placement occurs; applying the appropriate upper body support to the gun. I see people carefully placing their feet as they turn or move to a firing point and it nearly always appears a time consuming process.

Should actual stance - foot placement - get a lot of consideration if one is in a hurry?

 

[Sam1911]

Should actual stance - foot placement - get a lot of consideration if one is in a hurry?

IMHO? No. But I'm often shooting while moving and/or in very strange positions. "Stance" and footing don't really matter much to me, except that I try to keep my upper body, arms, shoulders, and head aligned the same way and balanced slightly forward -- regardless of other position or movement factors.

 

[4v50 Gary]

I agree 100% with NMPOPS. I taught both, discussed the tactical application of both and encouraged my officers to use them according to the tactical situation (e.g. Weaver is better for barricade/position of cover).

 

[JohnBT]

I like the question the old guy with a bum leg asked on another forum...

Is there a formal name for "Shooting while running for cover"?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Should actual stance - foot placement - get a lot of consideration if one is in a hurry?

No, not in my opinion

I only advocate a certain foot placement as a consistent base for the upper body to work from. The more consistent the lower body is, the easier it is to make corrections to the upper. I also advocate for neutral foot placement to reduce it's influence on the upper body.

Once you've go advanced to the point that most of your upper body issues have been addressed, it really doesn't make much difference what your lower body is doing. Anyone who has seen top flight USPSA shooters in serious competition has seen shooting with only one foot on the ground...but you wouldn't/shouldn't start a less accomplished shooter there

 

[9mmepiphany]

(e.g. Weaver is better for barricade/position of cover).

I've actually found the Modern Isosceles more fluid from behind cover as it allows slicing the pie more smoothly.

I had a client who shot very well shooting from a Weaver, but had a lot of wasted motion as they had to keep shifting their trailing foot to maintain they stance.

When slicing the pie using the Mod. Iso (I got tired of writing it out), you only need to sink on the leg nearest the edge of cover to transverse more area

 

[jeepnik]

Experience has taught me that the best positon from which to fire a handgun is one of two. Either flat on the ground, or from behind something really, really hard. You might want to stand toe to toe and shoot it out, but if there is anything even remotely close, by the time you draw I'm gonna be behind it returning fire.

Oh, and by the way. The first time I returned fire with a handgun, I was flat on my belly wishing I had a real deep hole to shoot from. But that's just me.

 

[1911Tuner]

I like the question the old guy with a bum leg asked on another forum...

Is there a formal name for "Shooting while running for cover"?

There ya go! Picture Val Kilmer firing at Ike Clanton in Fly's studio window during the OK Corral shootout scene in Tombstone.

The first time I returned fire with a handgun, I was flat on my belly wishing I had a real deep hole to shoot from.

And cussin' the buttons on your shirt because they wouldn't let ya get lower.

 

[jeepnik]

There ya go! Picture Val Kilmer firing at Ike Clanton in Fly's studio window during the OK Corral shootout scene in Tombstone.



And cussin' the buttons on your shirt because they wouldn't let ya get lower.

Hmm, seems like you've been there as well. I guess we'll leave the standing tall to the gamers both handgun types and video types.

 

[Hangingrock]

My platoon book from 1964 clearly shows a PMI demonstrating with a 1911A1 the “Weaver” stance/hold/position to recruits at Parris Island.

 

[mls]

Just a comment. No matter what sport, your feet, stance, lower torso is essential to consistant, strong body movement. Bullseye, Idpa, baseball, golf, tennis, etc. If you do not learn and practice movement, right, left forwards, backwards, obliques, you are missing out on good training. Also, as said before, kneeling and shooting around cover, lying flat...etc.

 

[bikerdoc]

Good thread, with lots of info.
Me, been shooting since 64, always used modified weaver. Trying hard to trasition to Iso.
Anecdotal, the 2 time I have had to use a hand gun to stop a threat, It was from hard cover one handed. Some times murphy leaves you no choices.