Handloading Hornady FTX/Lil Gun max load

[Knightrunner]

Hello all,
First of all, thank you for the opportunity of being a part of your community. I've spent a great deal of time reading and trying to absorb as much information that I feel pertains to my endeavors as possible.
I've been squeezing triggers for nearly 40 years and know my way around a firearm but I've only recently decided to take up handloading for cost savings and accuracy. I plan to try get more involved in reloading eventually as well, but for now all new components are being used.
That said, I am seeking the sage advise from those with experience in order to keep from making a poor decision(s).
I've decided to begin reloading the .500 S&W magnum round for hog hunting with my X-frame revolver. It's the compensated 8-⅜" version.
The bullet I've chosen is the 300 grain Hornady FTX. The brass is new Starline and the powder I purchased is Hodgdon's Lil gun. The primers are Winchester WLR.
I own reloading manuals from Lyman, Speer, Hornady, and Nosler, but since I'm using Hornady bullets, (and because all of my equipment is Hornady), I chose to go with the load data published in the Hornady book.
The first round of bullets I made were using 47.5 grains powder for an advertised velocity of 1950 fps. I them moved up to 49 grains for an advertised velocity of 2000 fps. This load is the max load according to the manual. To be clear, I haven't fired any of the rounds yet that I have loaded.
My concern is that after I loaded the rounds, while waiting for the weekend to go to the range, I was browsing this site and reading posts about the .500 and handloading...and I saw a few where guys were being "sternly cautioned" about using over 43 grains of powder in this very same round. Enough warnings that I became nervous.
The Hornady manual specifically calls out that the second round I've loaded is the "max load and should be used with caution". But if it wasn't safe to load, they wouldn't publish it correct?
I intended to start by loading and shooting a single bullet with the lesser charge and then examining the case and primer before continuing. Only after I shot 10 or so of that load, would I move up and perform the same procedure with the max load. But after some of the posts that I've read, I would like to get some opinions from those who know a lot more than I do...BEFORE I find out the painful way.
All opinions welcome...

 

[mrawesome22-250]

They might be referring to the fact that Lil Gun burns extremely hot and is known to flame cut the top strap very quickly. I vaguely remember reading about a guy who ruined a Freedom Arms revolver in only a couple hundred rounds using large doses of Lil Gun.

I've read so many warnings about this powders use in revolvers that I just won't take the chance with it.

 

[Targa]

Is that 50fps going to be worth going into the red with the additional 1.5 grains? You are within the loading data but that doesn’t mean you are doing that revolver any favors. Just my .02.

 

[Knightrunner]

So when Hornady says to "use with caution", what they mean is that you really shouldn't do it...
I kind of had the feeling I knew what I was going to do before I asked the question. Guess I'm pulling 50 bullets and lowering the charge. Should I probably run the cases through the sizing die and re-flare? Think I can leave the primers in during this operation?
On another note...does anyone know what kind of powder Hornady puts in the factory 300 gr FTX ammo. I'm not opposed to just mimicking that round and maybe tweaking it a bit as I become more practiced.
Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the .02...

 

[Blue68f100]

You should always start at the min and work up toward the max looking for over pressure signs. Picking a number and trying it is not a good idea when looking at max loads. LilGun is not a powder I recommend for handguns due to it's high temp cutting forcing cones. After a cylinder full you barrel will be hot enough to burn you if you fired them fast.

Welcome to THR

 

[mrawesome22-250]

Large ammo manufacturers don't use canister grade powders. They put in large orders with powder manufacturers with specific parameters that they require.

No one knows the parameters of the powder they use and you can't buy what they use in retail canisters.

The tried and true method of load developement is take the max book load, reduce by 10% and start there, slowly working up the charge until desired accuracy is achieved. Rarely is the max load the most accurate load (though occasionally it is).

This is all information that can be obtained in the front section of your reloading manual.

Edit: Load developement generally starts with batches of 5 rounds, not 50.

 

[MauriceSam]

One thing I found loading the FTX for my .357 was trying to get consistent seating depth. Seems the seater plug would mash the tip a bit and had a time getting consistence for OAL. I ended up turning one on my lathe to match the profile of the tip so it would not damage or deform it. I know this is not what you were asking about, but I thought I would throw it out there.

 

[Knightrunner]

Edit: Load developement generally starts with batches of 5 rounds, not 50.

The truth to that statement occurred to me this evening while pounding all those buggers out! Turns out I had a pretty good crimp...
Anyway, I removed the decap pin from the sizing die, sprayed some one shot on them, resized, re-flared, dropped the 49gr down to 44.1, reseated and re-crimped. I did leave 5 rounds each charged at 47.5 and 49 grains. If all goes well and I don't see any over -pressure symptoms, I may try those out as well.
FYI...I'm hearing what a lot of folks are saying about Lil Gun. But I'm also hearing a lot of folks that seem to really like it. I only bought a pound of it, so I think I'll probably switch to another type after it's gone, but I'm gonna go ahead and use up what I've got.

MauriceSam: The Hornady Custom die set that I have came with two seater plugs...one flat and one conical. The conical one isn't touching the tip, but it does leave a slight ring around the bullet below the tip. I do seem to be hunting for the correct OAL because the brass isn't consistent. The cases are all within a couple thousandths of each other, so I've been checking each one and raising the seater using the microjust stem to keep the OAL correct. So far, my crimps have all fallen just below the top of the cannelure and seem to be locking on pretty good. Once my .50 cal pilot gets here for the trimmer, I think I'll start trimming even my new brass for better consistency.
Thanks for the guidance! I'll post up what transpires at the range this weekend and in the meantime, I'll keep reading through all the great stuff here!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I like Lil'gun for several application but it really heats up the barrel and gun. A lot...

Disclaimer, this information is from my reloading buddy, I don't own a 500 but we talk reloading all the time and help each other develop loads.

Your brass, primers and bullets are ok but I suggest changing to W296/H110. Accurate 4100 is a good choice too. Many reloaders choose a powder solely on max velocity but slightly less velocity for the good of the gun is a good thing. Some reloaders are using AA1680 with heavier bullets but I know nothing about how they shoot.

 

[Highland Lofts]

I will not use lilgun powder. I read a on several forums about top strap and throat damage due to this powder. I bought a pound of it when I first got into reloading and there it sits unopened. For $30 a pound I will keep it to look at and use another type of powder.

WHY TAKE A CHANCE OF DAMAGING YOUR GUN?

There are so mamy powders out there that can satisfy your needs and do literly no posible damage to rour firearm.
Lilgun burns way to hot for me.

 

[Knightrunner]

Ok, so I made it out to the range this morning to sight-in a new scope and mount and to fire my first hand loaded rounds...
I used up a couple boxes of Magtech factory ammo to get me on paper at 50 yds and then moved the target to 100 and try to tighten up a little bit. I then moved back to 50 to see where things were going to land with a 100 yd zero. I've never fired a handgun with a scope, so I wanted to see what my come-up adjustments would look like for real world, (hunting), applications. Through this process, I found it quite difficult to keep a decent grouping of any sort. I was starting to think it was all me until I ran out of the magtech stuff and decided to try the handloads referenced above.
Wow. It wasn't all me. Now I'm getting a group. It moved my POI up and to the right, but the rounds were obviously more powerful, (based on recoil and muzzle blast), so I'm assuming a higher velocity and more spin drift were to blame for the shift...
I adjusted the crosshairs to compensate for the shift and was keeping everything inside about a 3" circle.
Examining the cases, I see no signs of over-pressurization. The Lil Gun powder is extremely dirty, but I didn't notice any extreme heat. After firing 5 rounds, pausing a few seconds in between each, I had no trouble holding the barrel with my bare hand. The only area of concern is a slight crimp jump. Maybe .002 or .003", but I read about and ordered a Lee factory crimp die to try to remedy this.
On a side note...I did pick up a pound of H110 last night based on statements made above and will load up a couple batches and head back to the range tomorrow.
Thanks for reading this and offering your opinions and advise.

 

[murf]

the crimp die won't cure your crimp jump issue. if your jump is only two or three thousandths, no problem. your load should have the heaviest crimp which is all the way to the bottom of the crimp cannelure and centered in that cannelure.

luck,

murf

 

[FROGO207]

Yeah with mine if I can shoot a cylinder full without tying the gun up my crimp is good. With 650 grain hollow points that just fit the cylinder I have to be more mindful of the crimp though. I decided to use my Lil Gun in my 22 Hornet rifle and for 410 loading. For now I am using AA 4100 for my loads. The beauty of handloading is being able to tune your loads to your firearm for accuracy.

 

[buck460XVR]

I've read so many warnings about this powders use in revolvers that I just won't take the chance with it.

^^^I'm in the same boat, and I speak from experience. I used to use Lil'Gun because of the advertised increased velocity and extremely low pressures. Guns got so hot I couldn't touch them after only a few rounds. This was in revolvers and revolver caliber carbines. Did not experience this with any other powder. Then came the stories of excessive and premature forcing cone erosion, especially with light for caliber bullets and high velocities(like your 49 gr under a 300 gr bullet in .500 S&W). Then the warnings from Bob Baker of Freedom Arms and the destruction these types of loads did to several X-Frames in just a matter of a few rounds. Realized the few extra FPS I might get from Lil'Gun just ain't the risk to my guns. Got better accuracy from H110/W296 and IMR4227 in my big bores anyway.

 

[Targa]

I’m glad this thread came up, I was tempted to try Lil’Gun as it has been recommended as the powder of choice for .450 Bushmaster. I’ll stick with H110, other than it leaking from my Lee Auto Drum, I have been happy with it.

 

[buck460XVR]

I’m glad this thread came up, I was tempted to try Lil’Gun as it has been recommended as the powder of choice for .450 Bushmaster. I’ll stick with H110, other than it leaking from my Lee Auto Drum, I have been happy with it.

Since rifles don't have cylinder gaps or forcing cones, Lil'Gun doesn't seem to be as abusive on them as it is on revolvers. Still, even tho at one time, I did use it to load for handgun caliber carbines, I don't anymore. Even in my carbines, it seemed to produce excessive heat as compared to other magnum type powders.

 

[454PB]

Any slow burning ball powder used in big bore guns is going to cause top strap and forcing cone erosion. Some say Lil'gun is worse than H-110/WW296, but I haven't seen that in any of my three .454 Casulls. All three do exhibit this erosion, but all have fired many rounds. When I started loading for .454 25 years ago, I used H-110, AA#9, and WC820 powders. By the time I began using Lil'gun, there was already top strap/ forcing cone erosion on all three (Freedom Arms 83, Ruger SRH, and Taurus Raging Bull). After thousands of additional rounds, the erosion has not increased to any noticeable extent. This erosion is the price we pay for maximum effort loads.

 

[Knightrunner]

Any slow burning ball powder used in big bore guns is going to cause top strap and forcing cone erosion.

That's the conclusion I'm beginning to form...
Since reading the first warning above, I have scoured the interweb seeking more information and opinions and it seems that for every 10 people condemning 'LilGun, there are 10 more that love it.
I want to use whatever will keep both of my hands attached and not destroy my $1100 revolver, but all the conflicting information could drive a rookie reloader back to buying factory ammo!
Being new, I don't know what I don't know about testing the ammunition I'm building to formulate my own opinion and would love to simply do what the more experienced crowd says is right...but the more experienced crowd seems to be split themselves...
Oh well...guess the right choice will reveal itself in due time...
Also want to add that I am thankful for the advise above that pushed me to lower my powder charge. I'm happy with the way I was shooting at 44.1gr and will likely just stay there. Maybe not shooting at maximum load is the key to longevity in these guns.

 

[buck460XVR]

Any slow burning ball powder used in big bore guns is going to cause top strap and forcing cone erosion.

This is true, but some powders are known to erode those at a higher rate. Normal top strap erosion tends to stop once it gets to a certain point. Forcing cone erosion not so much. while it may diminish at some point, it still continues. Lil'Gun has about 10% more nitroglycerin in it than H110/W296 and is what Bob Baker of FA believes is the reason guns get so hot when shot with Lil'Gun loaded ammo, and why he figures it erodes forcing cones so much faster. He believes that it gets the metal in those areas hot enough that the metal actually flows. I have shot guns side by side with H110 loads and Lil'Gun loads and there is no doubt that those that fired off the Lil'Gun rounds became much hotter and much more quickly, than those shot with the H110 loads. Swap loads and the same thing happens with the other guns. Something is going on, and for me, the choice is obvious. There is not enough gain from using Lil'Gun to warrant even the slightest amount of increased erosion. The Lil'Gun loads, while giving me a tad more velocity, never shot as accurately as H110/W296 loads. Accuracy is what I strive for in my hunting loads......I'd rather have a smaller pattern than 40fps. This also makes my choice easier. Others are free to feel differently.

 

[454PB]

I do agree that Lil'gun heats the gun more than other powders, but I've seen comments that say you could light a cigarette off the barrel in 10 shots. I don't believe that, and I've only really noticed gun heating when using Lil'gun in .357 magnum. 50 quick shots heat the barrel enough to make it uncomfortable to hold. When I'm shooting .44 magnum or .454 Casull, I don't shoot that fast.....

 

[10mm expert]

I like Lil'gun for several application but it really heats up the barrel and gun. A lot...

Disclaimer, this information is from my reloading buddy, I don't own a 500 but we talk reloading all the time and help each other develop loads.

Your brass, primers and bullets are ok but I suggest changing to W296/H110. Accurate 4100 is a good choice too. Many reloaders choose a powder solely on max velocity but slightly less velocity for the good of the gun is a good thing. Some reloaders are using AA1680 with heavier bullets but I know nothing about how they shoot.

I have not found any problem with a lil gun loading 325FTX Hornady 458 SOCOM in a Wilson combat rifle I have loaded and shot 1000 rounds out of it I am just short of what everybody else is shooting for a max 29.5 grains The cases are hot the barrel is not I really don’t shoot more than three rounds at a time and the speed of the bullet is going 1870-1840. Groups at 100 yards Cloverleaf

 

[Knightrunner]

Finally made it to the range to test some rounds I made using the H110.
Overall, I will say that I like the H110 better. It seems to burn cleaner and it didn't try to turn the edges of my cylinder blue from, (what I suspect is), heat. Thinking I'm not going to continue loading with Lil Gun...
Inspecting the cartridge cases, I think I may see overpressure signs around a few of the primers, but I wanted to post a couple pictures and see what you all think. I may just be over cautious at this point...

The first group was 45gr H110 with a 300gr FTX bullet. The second group was 41.4gr of H110 with a 350gr XTP bullet.

 

[Demi-human]

They look like arthritis is in your future.

Your loads are in the book. Going uncharted, or near maximum, isn't something a beginning loader, though accomplished shooter, should do with a Five Hundred Smith.(Pardon my envy.)
Reading primers is like reading tea leaves, especially so in a pistol, but they look a bit flat to me. Could be the photo.


Since extra heat erosion from Lil' Gun isn't worth the extra fifty feet per second, would loading the world's most powerful handgun right at the maximum of pressure make it more deadly than your loads now?

They seem like they work great!


Keep up the good work.

 

[Knightrunner]

This one is the one that got my attention...

BTW...is there a formula out there that can used to come up with at least a ballpark idea of pressure generated based on powder quantity and bullet weight? I know the only way to measure pressure exactly is with a test barrel, but it would be nice to have an idea if a particular load is 10,000 or 15,000 CUP's below what the gun was designed to handle.
And yeah...Lil Gun is out. I figured out what side of the fence I wanted to be on there.

 

[Demi-human]

This one is the one that got my attention...

That is a “Pressure Excursion”.
The tiny minutiae that is unmeasurable, yet still has profound effect on the total pressure of the firing event. For all intents and purpose your rounds were as exact as you could possibly make them. Even using a micrometer seating die.
Yet this case evidently underwent more pressure under firing. When loading to the top, that case could have separated.

Or that primer cup is just ever so slightly thinner than the rest and only looks like it received a higher pressure. But at maximum could have blanked out or become pierced by the pin.
It’s tough to read those leaves.

And this is in December. In June things are going to get hot, if you catch my drift!


I’d say for your firearm and these components you’ve found your maximum load. And quite an accurate one too.

Gratuitous fireball pic!