Handloads for Defense, Sept 1 TX

Status
Not open for further replies.

PotatoJudge

Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
1,332
Location
Texas
Here in Texas, as of September first anyone who is not criminally prosecuted for a self defense shooting is protected from civil suits (as I understand it). It seems like it then comes down to whether or not handloads sway the decisions of LEOs and DAs to arrest and press charges.

I have my own ideas on how this might change the arguments about using handloads for self defense; I'm wondering what you guys think.
 
This topic is beat to death but I don't see how handloads have any bearing on if you murdered someone or were justified in killing them.
 
Mas Ayoob had a reason going beyond the normal "But he used SUPER DEADLY bullets!" from a lawyer. The powder residue on the clothes of the guy you shot can be used, IIRC, to determine at what distance the gun was fired. The batch lot of the ammo used can be traced to the factory, who can give the information on it. The distance of the shot might be very important in a situation where you've got no witnesses/no good witnesses. Did you pop the guy from fifty feet? Did you get him while he was rushing you? That kind of thing.
Handloads probably have more variation than factory ammo - which might cause grief.

I think he made the post I'm talking about on this forum... or maybe in one of his articles.
 
Geronimo, I was just reading some old posts on that. I never payed much attention to the case law citations, just the stories that went along with them.

NH v.James Kennedy, TN v. Robert Barnes, NJ v. Leonard Bias, and Iowa v. Cpl. Randy Willems

The first case there was one of the "regular bullets weren't deadly enough for you, and you had to handload your own." I was suprised to see that it was a DA using that argument- most of the time that's brought up in this debate is in reference to civil suits. In fact all those trials would have been prosecutions by the DA, if that's what the v. State means. That'll teach me to think a DA would have more scruples in their handling of a case than a lawyer in a civil suit. How many civil suits are there where handloads have been brought up? Could be half a dozen criminal trials and 75 civil suits, I don't know.

So it looks to me like the new Texas law tips the scales a bit closer to even in the debate, though not by as much as it looked like at first. At least it won't be used against you in a civil case, and that counts for something.

Did you pop the guy from fifty feet? Did you get him while he was rushing you?

GSR just gives a rough estimation of distance: contact, a couple of distinctions from a few inches up to a couple of feet, then "farther than X inches." I'm sure there's more, but I don't see how the differences between loads changes GSR to the point that it matters much. Can using handloads that the lab can't test get GSR thrown out altogether, even if there are obvious powder and burn marks on the deceased? It seems like differences in GSR would be more of a legaleese problem than a problem with actual evidence to backup your story.
 
I didn't use to buy into the whole no hand loads for SD thing, but I now have to admit that Mas has some very valid points. Same thing goes for modified guns, "killer ammo" and very powerful calibers. If the shooting is cut and dry and witnesses all say "self defense" than it doesn't matter what you used to kill the BG with. It's when it's not so cut and dry that stuff like hand loads come into play. Read the Fish case, he was pretty much convicted not because the shooting was bad, but because he used a 10mm with hollow points. Listen to the idiot jury comments, it's frightening, and rightfully so, to anyone that carries a gun for self defense.

All the above have convinced me to use a gun/caliber/ammo combination that the local police use. And honestly, am I at any kind of disadvantage with something like a .40 S&W Glock 22 loaded with factory Speer Gold Dots? Makes it pretty hard for a DA or Jury to convict you on gun/ammo choice when it's the same thing your local police use. Because after all, we all know how kind and caring police officers are. I'd love to hear the DA refute that.

I load up an equivalent round using Gold Dot bullets to practice with, but my carry ammo is always factory ammo and I keep the box it came in just in case someone needs the lot number.
 
Read the Fish case, he was pretty much convicted not because the shooting was bad, but because he used a 10mm with hollow points.
I disagree, Harold Fish was convicted because the medical examiner said Kuenzil side was turned toward fish when he was shot, because kuenzil was not found to have weapons and was shot because of a verbal threat.

Meagan Elliot, juror: We saw that self-defense was not your only option.

While there was mention that he was using a 10mm (also note they tried to use hollow points to show his murderous intentions...if its not handloads it'll be that you're carrying hollow points, or +P, or leo ammunition, or not carrying leo ammo), the jury's decision is because they were led to believe that shooting was not fish's only option.

In the words of the defense:
I was the trial attorney who represented Harold Fish. Contrary to the suggestion that the jury was not educated on self defense training, a nationally recognized expert, Michael Anthony, of Phoenix testified. The jury knew that FIsh had received extensive self defense training. Fish followed his training. The travesty of this case came as result of shocking rulings from the court. We were not allowed to tell the jury about prior dog attacks. We were not allowed to provide specific information about prior deadly attacks by the decedent. We were not allowed to talk about the psychiatric condiction of the decedent, who had several suicide attempts, and who had been hospitalized for his psychiatric conditions. The decedent, a homeless man, lived in the woods. He suffered from PTSD, Agrophoebia, and a number of severe debilitating problems. Judges, retired police officers, lawyers and other citizens were denied any ability to discuss terrifying events that they had encountered with decedent Kuenzli. One was choked and thought he would die.

A woman and her son were held hostage and threatened with death. None of this information of violence was provided to the jury. The conviction and sentencing were a complete travesty of justice. An appellate court will some day reverse this conviction. In the meantime, the defendant, a father of 7, will be taken from his home. It should be noted that the NRA defense fund did provide some financial assistance.
 
Read the Fish case, he was pretty much convicted not because the shooting was bad, but because he used a 10mm with hollow points.

No. He was convicted because his claim for how the event went down did not match other evidence that was to the contrary of his claims. The problem was not that he used hollowpoints, but that he used lethal force in a situation that the jury did not feel lethal force was justified.
 
I have my own ideas on how this might change the arguments about using handloads for self defense; I'm wondering what you guys think.

They can still hang you with Gross Negligence.

That's the trump card of all these kinds of lawsuits.

If you are GROSSLY negligent then you normally have no protections at all.

As for the Fish case, the Spy has it correct. That was just prosecutorial "dogpiling" since the shoot itself was questionable.

I still hold with "if it's a good shoot it doesn't matter if you use a .22 or a .50BMG" but I wouldn't want to take my chances with the gross negligence thing.
 
The powder residue on the clothes of the guy you shot can be used, IIRC, to determine at what distance the gun was fired. ......Handloads probably have more variation than factory ammo - which might cause grief.

I agree with handloads being a bad idea, but what about military surplus ammo in a self defense situation?

If I ever have to use one of my rifles in self defense, most of my ammo is surplus. At least there would be alot left to run tests on.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top