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HARD RECOIL

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by golden, Jan 16, 2019.

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  1. golden

    golden Member

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    I was at the range yesterday shooting a STOEGER 8040, this is the Turkish made copy of the old BERETTA 8040 pistol in .40 S&W. I shot some 165 grain WINCHESTER fmj and a mix of 180 grain fmj and hollow point. Then I tried some old 155 grain jhp made by REMINGTON and issued when my agency went to the .40S&W over 20 years ago. It reportedly had a velocity of about 1200 fps out of our BERETTA 96D's
    WOW. It recoiled harder than I remember. I used to shoot this ammo in BERETTA 96's and SIG 229 pistols and it did not seem that bad. Then the slide locked open with one round still in the magazine. It did that twice in 25 rounds.
    Has anyone else had a similar problem with a .40 S&W pistol?

    Jim
     
  2. Riomouse911

    Riomouse911 Member

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    Depending on how the 155 gr ammo was stored it sounds like the powder may have started to deteriorate.

    From what I’ve read/heard/experienced is a cool and constant temp is best for powder and ammo storage. Places like basements and inside room closet floors, etc. Swings of hot and cold, like being stored in an attic, high on uninsulated garage shelves year round, in your car trunk, etc. are the hardest on ammo.

    20 years isn’t ancient for ammo if properly taken care of, but it is still fairly old. Deteriorating powders can give erratic pressures, so this may be a cause for the excessive recoil and the slide snapping back and locking prematurely.

    I’d pull the bullets and dump the powder and use the components to reload with if I suspected the ammo has timed out.

    Stay safe!

    .
     
  3. NIGHTLORD40K

    NIGHTLORD40K Member

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    Yep, unstable powder burning too fast.:(
     
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  4. JTQ

    JTQ Member

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    Didn't the Border Patrol (or some other large LE agency) move away from the 155gr stuff and to 180gr because the 155gr stuff was bringing their guns to a premature death. The 180gr stuff was not as hard on the guns or shooters.
     
  5. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    That sounds a bit warm. Were there any signs of over pressure? Case head expansion or primer flow/flattening?
     
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  6. mrmike7189

    mrmike7189 Member

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    ....I've fired 155 grain and there is a BIG differnce in recoil. The 180 grain just seems like a 9mm in an all metal gun.
     
  7. Stumper

    Stumper Member

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    Deteriorating powder typically resuts in DECREASED performance so I doubt that is a factor(and the ammo is not old-50 year old stuff stored in poor conditions is usually fine). It sounds to me like the load is simply hot. It happens.
     
  8. davidalyn

    davidalyn Member

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    Factory 155 grain 40's have a nasty recoil. They were blamed for the demise of many Glock 22 frame rails. Whether it was really the fault of the 155s or not, Glock did redesign and replace many Glock M22/35 frames. If memory serves me well, the 40 caliber was designed around the 180 bullet.
     
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  9. golden

    golden Member

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    Border Patrol and its parent agency Customs & Border Protection went from the 155 grain jhp to the 135 grain jhp and switching to the H&K P2000 and then to the 180 grain jhp. I have no doubt that the 155 grain jhp was hard on handguns. The goal of the 155 grain load was to equal the 125 grain .357 magnum load the most of Border Patrol used. While the 155 grain .40 caliber was slower, it used a wider bullet and there were no complaints of being undergunned.
    The I&NS, at that time, the Border Patrol's parent organization, was issuing 110 grain .357 magnum jhp to the Inspectors at the borders and 125 grain to the Border Patrol.

    When I turned in my BERETTA 96D Brigadier (a 96 with a heavier, reinforced slide), the slide was moving back and forth so slowly, I could actually see it moving clearly, not the usual blur. It worked, but it was obviously on its last legs.
    There were no over pressure signs.
    I agree with MMIKE, the 180 grain is much milder in an alloy framed gun.

    Next time I take the 8040 to the range, I will bring along some 135 grain to see how much of a difference with the 180 grain.

    Jim
     
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  10. dodo bird

    dodo bird Member

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    I don’t know about the ammo but the Stoeger cougar is one of the softest shooting 40sw I have shot. Rotating barrel helps quite a bit.
     
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  11. golden

    golden Member

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    dodo,

    I was commenting more on the ammo, than the pistol. I find the 8040 easy to shoot, but was surprised when I let off the 155 gr. ammo. I had not shot these loads in a while, perhaps 10 years and then it was in the BERETTA 96D Brigadier, which is a larger, heavier gun.

    Jim
     
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  12. dodo bird

    dodo bird Member

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    Yep I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. The 8040 is a nice an accurate shooter. The best 40 I have shot yet!
     
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  13. cslinger

    cslinger Member

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    I have shot some of the 155grain boarder patrol stuff and ITS HOT. I tend to run 165 or 180 grain stuff and none of that in popular defensive loads feels anywhere near as hot as that 155 grain stuff.

    Just food for thought.
     
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  14. mrmike7189

    mrmike7189 Member

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    I agree.I usually carry 165 gr. HST,but I shot one box of that 155 gr. in my Ruger P944 and it is powerful stuff. What a great defensive round!
     
  15. golden

    golden Member

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    WOW part 2,

    I went to the range today with the STOEGER 8040 and fired a box of 135 grain jhp and 180 grain jhp. I mixed the rounds in the magazine as I fired my qualification drill. I had no trouble telling the different weight rounds by the noise each time I fired a 135 grain jhp. Like the hot 155 grain ammo, the sound each round made was sharper and louder when a 135 gr. was fired. I did not notice an increase in recoil, like I did with the 155 grain ammo. However, the 135 grain ammo did shoot low.

    Next time I will mix 135 and 155 grain ammo for a comparison.

    Jim
     
  16. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    golden, what you are describing is not surprising to those of us who load our own ammo. To reach a similar bullet momentum/power factor,* the lighter bullet requires a larger charge of powder. That powder turns into high-pressure gasses at ignition, and those come out the barrel when the bullet exits. They contribute to mechanical recoil, but especially to blast/flash/pop. There will, of course, be variation in all this depending on the powder used by the maker of the ammo and other factors, but the general trend you are noticing is precisely what one would expect.

    *Of course, one can make a lighter load with a lighter bullet, but if you're buying retail stuff - particularly JHP's- you're generally getting something in the "service load" power levels, regardless of bullet weight.
     
  17. Kendahl

    Kendahl Member

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    Lighter bullets mean less recoil. If the 155 grain bullets were recoiling harder than 180s, it was because the 155s were loaded much hotter.
     
  18. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Lighter bullets at the SAME velocity mean less recoil. Lighter bullets loaded to the same total momentum mean MORE recoil. “Hotter” does not specify which you mean.
     
  19. golden

    golden Member

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    Dave,

    I do not handload, but I understand what you are saying. In my original post, I wanted to know if anyone else had a similar situation with the slide locking back with a round still in the magazine. I have not seen this on any other gun that I have shot, but have heard of it.
    Kendall,
    I do not know if the 135 grain bullets are moving at the same speed as the 155 grain, but I had heard that they were. My second post was more of an observation of the difference between the 135 grain and 155 grain and 180 grain. I did not have any unexplained lockback on the 135 grain and while the round was noisier and recoil impulse sharper, the overall recoil impulse did not feel heavier as it did with the 155 grain ammo.

    Jim
     
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