Hardening Harpers Ferry Frizzen: Kasenit and Propylene torch?

[Snowdog]

I have a Perdersoli Harper's Ferry that I believe has a soft frizzen. I can get it to spark with various flints I've tried, but not enough for reliable ignition (only about 1 in 4 attempts ignite the FFFFG in the pan). I know the lock angle is not ideal, but I also know many use these things after treating the frizzen.

After doing some research, I've purchased some Kasenit and a Bernzomatic TS8000 that uses something called Propylene.
I have a general idea of how the hardening is done and plan on doing a bit more research before I get started.

However, the first step of my plan is to get all the materials I need to get the job done. I know Kasenit is the correct stuff, but I was actually looking for torch that used MAPP gas and could only find torches that uses butane, propane or Propylene. I was told by the salesman (Lowes) that the propylene was the hottest stuff they had in a handheld torch.

Will the TS8000 and included 16.92 oz Propylene container be enough to sufficient to properly heat the frizzen to temperatures needed for the Kasenit to be effective?

I have zero experience with such things, so this is very much a learning experience for me.

Thanks in advance for any pointers you can give.

 

[col.lemat]

I would the use C3s' they burn hotter

 

[StrawHat]

I've hardened parts with electric furnaces and with charcoal fires. Never used a gas torch but would imagine it could be done even if it is more expensive. Whatever you use, build an enclosure to keep out the wind and it will help keep the heat in.

THe angle geometry is off on the HFs and correcting that will help. What flints are you using? Some are better than others.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

My experience with Pedersoli products is that usually when the frizzen doesn't spark, it's not that it needs more carbon so needs Kasenit..., it's simply that it needs proper hardening. I learned this watching reenactors who would wrap their poor sparking frizzen in leather, put it into a steel can and crimp the lid, then place it into a campfire for a while, and when it stopped smoking they'd drop it into a bucket of water. They claimed it got hot enough for the leather to add carbon...., um ..., NOT! What they were doing was heating the frizzen through and through, and then quenching it.

I suspect that Pedersoli uses good steel, but only heats the surface of the frizzen face, and quenches it, so that after a while you get below that layer of hardened steel into softer stuff. Those frizzens that come from the factory as poor sparkers, I suspect didn't get up to the right temperature on the face befoe quenching, or weren't quenched fast enough, so never got hard enough. (Maybe it was Miller time or perhaps Chianti Time at the factory when your frizzen was finished?)

Anyway, heat the frizzen so that it just starts to glow deep red, then quench it. No kasenit or anything, just heat and quench, and try that first to see if the sparking works, before you heat it up to the high temp and time needed for the kasenit to really work right, and quench. Because sometimes quenching from that high a temp will crack a frizzen or even shatter it.

LD

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks for the responses guys.

StrawHat and Loyalist Dave, I've read about the geometry being "wrong", but haven't yet researched much as how to go about correcting that. If the hardening of the frizzen doesn't address the poor spark, then I guess that will be my final (and most expensive, I'm sure) attempt.

The flints I'm using are both from Track of the Wolf. 5/8" French Ambers and 5/8" English flints made by Tom Fuller. Both flints are scoring the hell out of the frizzen while failing to produce sufficient spark. I've heard great things about both of these flints, so I really believe it's my Harper's Ferry that's at fault.

It's all really a shame, especially the goofy lock geometry and possibly soft frizzen as this pistol appears very well made.

Could anyone point me in the right in direction concerning how to correct the angle of the hammer? Is there a replacement hammer that I can use or do I have to cut and weld the hammer myself?

Thanks again!

 

[velocette]

Wrapping a steel part in leather, then putting it in a campfire's bed of coals until the leather is long burnt off is the old fashioned way of case hardening mild steel (surface hardening) This is the same thing that Kasenit does today.
A torch sufficient to get the metal bright red hot and Kasenit will surface harden your frizzen.
Hardening steel is a factor of carbon content
There is NO way to through harden any low carbon steel. Heating and quenching in water or oil will NOT harden low carbon steel. You must have a sufficient carbon content in the steel from the mill to enable proper hardening / quenching / tempering. You can however surface harden low carbon steel with Kasenit or a campfire & leather. Essentially the Kasenit or leather with steel above its heat of transformation (bright red) will allow the carbon from the charring leather or Kasenit to enter the interstitial molecular structure of the steel on surface layers. Thus producing a thin layer of high carbon steel.

Roger

 

[Snowdog]

Thanks Velocette for the info. I do plan to just go straight to the heating/kasenit option since I already ordered it.

The torch I purchased should be hot enough. A short blast will melt old aluminum blazer cases just about instantly, so I know it will generate at least the 1000 degrees I've read is needed to properly heat the steel (not certain if this is true, but nice to know it's there if needed).

 

[Snowdog]

Just an update:

The frizzen hardening project went without a hitch. The hardening process from start to finish (not including removing/polishing frizzen) was less than 15 minutes.

After the process, the frizzen was a closer match to the case-hardened lock plate and no longer shiny.

I loaded up with 25gr Goex FFFG under a .570 round ball, primed the pan with FFFFG and using Tom Fuller flints, the shower of sparks from the newly hardened frizzen touched off the powder right away.

Thanks for the suggestions for getting my flintlock working. This Pedersoli Harper's Ferry is still a rock cruncher, but at least now it will fire without any problems.

 

[Curator]

Snowdog,

No one mentioned properly "drawing" the right angle where the striking surface meets the pan cover. After quench hardening you should polish the pan cover and back of the upright part, then with the striking surface lightly clamped in a large metal vise heat the junction of pan cover and striking surface until it becomes dark blue. Allow the whole thing to air cool. This treatment will usually prevent the frizzen from breaking off at the right angle.

For the past 15 years I have maintained our armory of Pedersoli flintlock muskets and had to deal with this issue on many occasions. New flintlocks get the frizzen hardening treatrment before being put into service. I have replaced several frizzens that were simply quenched to harden then broke off later. Drawing the temper at the right angle prevents this.

 

[junkman_01]

Good tip there Curator!

 

[Snowdog]

Curator, thanks for your contribution here. I wouldn't have known to do that. I suppose it wouldn't take too long to remove the frizzen and get this thing done if it will save me from trouble down the road.

Thanks again.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

As for "lock" geometry, there are some "backwoods" tricks. If the flint impacts at a square angle to the frizzen, it will likely bounce as well as placing huge stress on the stone, thus eating the flint, and not sparking well. One trick is to take a lead ball, hammer it flat on a brick, flat stone, or concrete, and then use some wire cutters to slice of a small piece of the lead. This you place under the rear, bottom portion of the flint. It should not contact more than 25% of the underside of the flint, thus raising the back end of the flint, and changing the angle of the edge of the flint downwards, toward the pan, just a little bit. This makes the flint scrape the frizzen more by smacking the frizzen at less of an angle. You might give this a try.

LD

 

[mykeal]

This is a Pedersoli Harper's Ferry lock from a pistol showing the poor geometry that's said to be typical of these locks. Changing the angle of the flint in the hammer jaws can help some, but it's still going to be along ways from the ideal 60 degrees. This particular gun sparks fairly well, however, despite the poor geometry.


Here's an example of much better geometry, this from a Lyman Great Plains Rifle:

That quartz sawed flint came with the gun; I replaced it soon after this photo was taken with a Rich Pierce flint and got 100% better sparking.