Harsh reality strikes me again.

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Rock_Steady

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So I'm reading all these posts about the shooter in the mall, the shooter in the church - looking at all the people saying that they would shoot someone 50+ yards away and feel confident that they could hit with thier CCW with boring regularity.

So I went to the range with a new coffee can of reloads and my XD-9sc. It's my primary gun, as it is the most easily concealable one I have, and I am confident in the 9mm round (well, more than the .32 that we have) as an effective one.

After doing some of my IDPA training that has been handed down (going to play this year, I swear, if it kills me) I put up a new target and gave myself 3 reloads - 45 rounds - and paced off 20 yards, give or take.

reality.jpg


I count one miss if you give me the whole paper. Most are on the target area, few high flyers on each side. I guess with this gun I should be concentrating center mass and hope to break ribs iffn' he's sportin' one of those fancy vests. I have a fair amount in the center, but my chances for a hit go up exponentially if I aim for a bigger target.

There are alot of things working against me here - 3" barrel, distance, not really a man-sized target - or at least not a man my size. Would I do better with my 5" 1911? Maybe. I would feel more confident with it, but who is to say. Right now I wanted to try with what I usually carry. This paper also wasn't shooting back - so decrease hit % by 50% at least. If I was shaking, people screaming, etc - I'd be in trouble.

I also don't think I should use a 3" gun for IDPA, but as they say, train as you fight.

I would like to challenge everyone to go out and try changing up thier range time. Try longer distances, smaller targets, whatever it takes. This is a nice dose of reality for me and will affect my training in the future.
 
I'm going out this weekend or next week during my winter break to start shooting up stuff with my CZ52. (paper, not people.)
You probably did better than I will, pistols are awkward for me a bit, I've only shot (maybe) 100 rounds over the course of three years.
But as far as I can see, you did pretty well for a 3".
good job.
 
I would like to challenge everyone to go out and try changing up thier range time. Try longer distances, smaller targets, whatever it takes. This is a nice dose of reality for me and will affect my training in the future.
Click to expand...

I'll take that challenge...and I'll add more training to it.
 
i was able to use a fellow range goers CZ-75b (a gun i had never fired before) and in less than 50 rounds of warming up... i was able to put 6 rounds out of a 15 round mag inside a 8inch pie plate target at 50 yards... i would say that if i were to actually own and practice with said gun, i would be able to hit a much higher % at that range, but i was damn impressed... so the detractors saying that 40-50 yard shots at a BG are impossible/stupid... i say, any amount of lead hitting the BG is better than none at all
 
I used the handy dandy ballistic calculator over at handloads.com and got some surprising results: http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

I carry a 2 inch SP101 with hot .357 ammo. The sights are about zero at 15 yards. At the very worst, assuming I'm only getting 800 fps from my 158 gr bullets (and I think I'm getting much more than that), the bullet will only impact around 4 inches low at 50 yards.

That is MUCH less than I had imagined, though I guess it makes sense. But, that means that there isn't really the need to factor in holdover - just point COM and shoot and POI should be where it needs to be.
 
Now try going out and shooting a helium baloon that is tied to a moving track. Make sure you run a few hundred yards to get your heart rate up, to simulate stress.

I would not attempt to shoot a moving person at 50 yds, with a pistol, especially when that person is armed with a rifle. People do not die until they lose enough blood. Even if you did get your hits, it would be very easy for him to turn the rifle on you. It would be even worse for you if he was wearing armor. Remember the Hollywood shootout? How many Cops with pistols, and even shotguns couldn't get a headshot? The mall witness did good by running.

If you were right next to the guy, and he opened up in the opposite direction, that's another thing. 50 yds away, and all you have is a pistol? Run.
 
Your grouping isn't bad at all for the gun you're using, in my opinion. I shoot a Glock 26 among others, and the barrel on that is 3.4in. I haven't shot at 20 yards, but have shot at 25, though I couldn't check my 2nd mag of hits because the rail broke on an indoor range and I wasn't sticking around 2 hours to retrieve it. But first mag was fairly disappointing.

If someone is 50 yards away with a pistol, the odds of you scoring a hit, much less a fatal one, are minimal. Even at 25 yards it's difficult, to say the least. But if you have good cover, maybe shooting at him will buy others time. But make sure you have good cover first - he'll probably bring the rain to your position. And while some may say "So that others may live" I prefer to remain among the living too!
 
I would like to challenge everyone to go out and try changing up thier range time. Try longer distances, smaller targets, whatever it takes. This is a nice dose of reality for me and will affect my training in the future.
Click to expand...

I like shooting at a little distance.
It's fun and makes you work at your slight alignment and trigger squeeze.:D

I consider myself just a decent shot.
I do shoot from 5-110 yards with my compact carry pistols.

It was so dark by the time I got to 40 yards the target was just a gray blur.
CT7to40yards.gif

50 yards. Standing. Two hands.
Polish PLR 9x18. The little gun is surprisingly accurate, except my three guns all shoot a little left or right.
P-6450yards.gif

My carry gun.
kimber_tu_50_yards_3.gif

The numbers are the number of the magazines. I do that because I may try a different sight picture from one magazine to the next.
40 shots, 8 missed the silhouette.
100yardsCZ83.gif
 
+1 on the futility of most handguns in engaging a target armed with a rifle at such a distance. Handguns are what we carry because rifles are either unlawful depending on where we are, when in a useful, loaded state, or unavailable. You need cover, the ability to carefully squeeze off shots at that distance, and the ability to mentally block out the fact that someone is shooting back, with twice the ammo, in both capacity and destructive potential, and at least five or six times the sight radius.
 
This is a good example of needing to know what your gun will do at different distances.

I recently bought this 45 ACP Kimber Ultra Covert II and it will probably replace the Tactical Ultra for carry.


This is the first time I shot the Covert at 112 yards. (I extended my range to 112 yards a couple months ago).

Out of the first three +1 magazines, 24 shots, I missed the silhouette SEVEN times. Not acceptable! But I did figure out the correct sight picture.

So I shot 16 more rounds "for record" and had 1 miss. That's acceptable (for me).:)

KimberCovertat112yards.gif
 
You need cover, the ability to carefully squeeze off shots at that distance, and the ability to mentally block out the fact that someone is shooting back, with twice the ammo, in both capacity and destructive potential, and at least five or six times the sight radius.
Click to expand...

True.
But what fool is going to dual with a rifleman.

If the "mall shooter" knows that you are after him before you are ready to take a shot, you have screwed up bad.
And if you haven't figured out in advance how to give him the least chance of hitting you then you better not get involved.
 
It isn't like anybody in their right mind would want to duel with someone carrying a rifle, especially someone who seems proficient in its use. The idea here is more, "oh, snap, I've got a lot of open space in front of me, a bit of half-decent cover, and he's either not directly facing me or targeting others."

If some such deranged subject is popping others 30 to 50 yards in front of me, and I think I can interfere with him to the point of injuring him, if not ending the threat outright without endangering others more than the subject is already, I have a moral and ethical responsibility to do so immediately.

Nobody looks forward to the prospect. At best, you're always tainted thereafter, no matter how heroic things seemed at first. At worst, you're at least on a par with a Bernie Goetz, if not just plain dead.
 
I would like to challenge everyone to go out and try changing up thier range time. Try longer distances, smaller targets, whatever it takes. This is a nice dose of reality for me and will affect my training in the future.
Click to expand...


VERY sound advice! I dunno about the rest of you, but I've felt a need to "up" the practice and training I do.

Today I had planned on practicing at my Dad's house for the first time in years (his alcoholism has not helped our relationship, but things are in a "good" mode at the moment). Much more possibilities there than where I currently live (though I'm not restricted to having to go to a range there either!) - I had planned on setting up multiple targets and engaging them from cover, on the move. Both in "retreat" and "attack" mode.

Well, I got delayed and it got dark on me.

Thought about postponing, then thought "life ain't fair, who says the BGs will only come after you in daylight?" So I dropped to one target, in the dark, with a flashlight, from cover.

The first time I've done REALLY low-light shooting with a light - some things I NEED to correct:

-"technique" - more than once I slipped out from behind my cover to take a shot, but held the light in such a way that I had a blind spot/shadow over the target.

-I shot one magazine by quickly taking two shots at a time from behind cover, then taking two more shots from the other side. I realized that I was popping up in a PATTERN - low on my left, high on my right. I'm no tacti-cool expert, but I guess that being predictable would be dumb in a real fight!

I'll try to go back tomorrow during DAYLIGHT to do more of the cover/shooting on the move stuff.

ETA - and maybe long-distance, too - something else I can't just do in the backyard currently!
 
People are bragging about their aim at 50 yards, wow! I have doubts that I could hit a semi-moving target at 10 yards with a handgun. With my current skill set, I will definitely take that into consideration if a guy with an AR15 suddenly starts shooting. As I said in the other thread, don't count on me to be your hero.
 
Never really tested my long-range pistoling on paper, but I do know this much:
I can keep all 10 shots on a pie plate from 8 yards firing as fast as I can pull the trigger.
I also can ding the 100-yard goat at the steel target range at my club an average of 4 rounds out of 10.
My gun is a Ruger P89 and I only shoot WWB ammo. FMJ for practice, JHP for carry.
This is standing with a two-handed grip.
I have no illusions about what I could do under life or death conditions.
Based on my success at deer hunting, I'll be lucky to shoot myself in the foot and scare the attacker off.
 
Oh, make no mistake - I have no delusions of grandeur that I am a hero.

But I already know HOW to run pretty good...so just in case I would NEED to engage someone at that distance (to bring MYSELF back in one piece, or to take shots at a shooter in a way that wouldn't at least spell CERTAIN death for me)....

I'd rather have the practice in shooting at that distance, as NOT - y'know. ;)
 
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