Pistol vs AK-47 for accuracy

[thegriz]

My brother and I have been practicing with pistols at the 100 yard range. Shooting bowling pins, steel targets, etc. With a little practice we found that we were just as accurate with the pistols as with some ak-47's with open sights.

Our bullets had only a little drop at 100 yards. We practiced with a couple 1911's and a Taurus 24/7 in .40 S&W.

If we had been using a sillouette target it would have been in big trouble as most of our shots would have been hits.

I don't hear much about pistol practice at that range. I think it has improved my shooting because the distance magnifies my shooting errors. If you haven't tried it I recommend you do it next time you hit the range.

It has really increased my confidence in the capabilities of my CCW.

 

[MechAg94]

I haven't tried 100 yards, but I have tried a little at 40 or 50 yards. You are right about magnifying errors. Shots that will be reasonable at 25 yards are off the paper out further. I haven't done it enough to get better, just playing around. Most pistol sights are not designed for it so you have to take some care.

Otherwise, find a better AK. My Vepr does not have that problem.

 

[Euclidean]

Not that a firing range necessarily does this per se, but the reason I've never bothered is that does not simulate pragmatic self defense situations at all.

As an excercise, yeah it's great, but even if you get really good at drilling holes at 100 yards I can't see anyone engaging an enemy from 300 feet away successfully with a pistol with any sort of frequency. When it's as dark as night, I probably won't even be able to see the goblin that far away. And in between us could be a building, a road, a sporting goods section, or a crowd of people.

Plus, is someone 300 feet away a clear threat? You're not in a uniform with an intelligence report and field commander barking in your ear that it is so.

I'd rather be worried about consistent accuracy at very short ranges (15 and less) under adverse conditions (in the dark, while bleeding, around obstacles, with the target moving and shooting back, etc.) rather than tack driving accuracy under ideal conditions. Combatives and awareness probably count for a lot more than the distance you can plug a melon at.

I'm not saying the latter is a bad thing at all, just not something I'm going to get worried about. Makes me want to try it.

 

[Lupinus]

you are talking a rifle vs a pistol, there really is no comparision at long range

A) The pistol round is going to be to unpredictable at that range
B) To hit that far away with a pistol its going to take some time to sight
C) No pistol round at that range is going to be a reliable man stopper. Pistol rounds arent as reliable man stoppers at any range when compared to a rifle, let alone at long ranges.

25 yards should be the max you expect to use a pistol if you are an average shot. 50 if you are a really good shot with a powerful round like .357 mag.

People might hunt longer then that, but a lot of those pistols are scopped and a bad shot there is a missed super or an injured animal. The stakes are higher in self defense.

 

[Justin]

50 yards is completely within the realm of pretty much any pistol. The slow fire segment of an outdoor NRA Bullseye match is shot at 50 yards, and that includes the .22 LR and other pistols chambered in fairly slow rounds like the .32 Long and soft-recoiling loads for the .45 ACP.

100 yards with a pistol is doable, but it's more of a parlor trick than something that will likely save your life. Shooting at a static target on a sunny day when you're out plinking with friends is, I would expect, a completely different universe than a life and death situation.

All other things being equal, once you get to distances beyond 50 yards, the guy with the rifle is going to see the advantages of firing a weapon that's more stable to hold, and has a much flatter bullet trajectory.

Being able to hit a target at 100 yards with a pistol is a great way to make money on bets, though.

 

[Ryder]

is someone 300 feet away a clear threat?

Yes -

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/whitman/index_1.html

 

[trainwreck100]

That's why we have AR's

 

[Lupinus]

forgot this

is someone 300 feet away a clear threat?

Very much so. What if he has a rifle and is taking aim at you? But also what if we are talking SHTF? Sorry if it sounds mean cruel or heartless. But there are situations where the normal reason to shoot someone are out the window. Food, clothing, supplies, killing them while they are trying to take the things you need to live, shooting them while they are a threat but not actually engaging you yet. It sounds heartless, but when society completely breaks down and it is survival of the fitist the reasons to shoot open up considerably and if you aren't willing to do so you just may not be one of those that fit into the fittist catagory if and when it ends.

50 yards is completely within the realm of pretty much any pistol. The slow fire segment of an outdoor NRA Bullseye match is shot at 50 yards, and that includes the .22 LR and other pistols chambered in fairly slow rounds like the .32 Long and soft-recoiling loads for the .45 ACP.

Not saying it isn't but I am talking SD situation not bullseye or slow fire matches. If you are just an average shot and really took your time with a decent pistol in a flat shooting chambering you could almost certianly hit a bowling pin. But if all you are is an average shot and that bowling pin is a BG with a rifle coming down on you you aren't likly to hit a target fifty yards away with the speed needed. The best you could hope for is to empty your mag with the best aim you could muster in the time you have and hope to hit him. If you are a very good shot and fast you might but for an average joe shooter 50 yards is double what I would bet my life on unless I knew damn well I was very good and very fast.

Also like I said power is an issue. The average pistol round isn't made to be shooting people 75 or 100 yards away with enough power to stop them. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't want to be on the recieving end of a pistol round a hundred yards away, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on being the guy behind the gun either with just a pistol needing to make a 100 yard shot.

 

[possum]

I have never been able and don't expect any time in the future being able to hit copenhagen cans at 100yds with a pistol, but i can do that all day long with my mak-90! but I am also one of those that might try 100yds shooting one day, plan on 50yds this weekend at the range, but I will be doing it for fun only and not trying to be a highspeed pistol wielding sniper with it! i just don't think that there is any reason that i would need to shoot a pistol that far, not even beyond 25 but hey i guess it will be fun, to try!

 

[Euclidean]

You people can magically look across a parking lot or through solid objects to see the threat 300 feet away? Really?

Especially if he's in a tower, enclosed, and you probably can't even see where it's coming from?

A 300 foot radius encompasses a lot. Go stand outside sometime and look at all the terrain around you in an urban environment.

 

[Ed Ames]

Most people have no idea how accurate their handguns are.

I know for fact that a bone-stock S&W airweight, with its sub 2" barrel and fixed notch sight, firing generic 158gr 38spcl, held basically weaver stance, can hit a kneeling-man-sized gong 4 times out of 5 at 100 yards ... probably better than 4/5 since that's close to my limit on a good day.

Years ago I went to a range with a guy who had, among other things, S&W airweight (model 37) ... it was straight out of the blue cardboard box actually...he had it as a protection weapon and he rarely fired it because of the aluminum frame. I had my ruger MkII.

We wound up on a section of the range that had gongs set out along the 100 yard line and an area where you could set up your own target closer in. And of course we were mostly setting up targets at 7-25 yards... but after a while I got bored and started ringing the gongs with my Ruger. He of course said there was no way he could do the same with his airweight 38 special, which wasn't designed for accuracy at all. So (with permission) I picked up his revolver and rang the gong four shots out of five....

Then did it again...

And then gave it back before I blew the "shooting cred" points I'd just generated.

But, in all seriousness, a little stubby .38 with a crease in the top strap where the rear sight should be can be accurate enough to be a threat even at 100 yards. A decent pistol with decent sights can do better. Why would you need to? Apart from the obvious "responding to people taking pot-shots from 100 yards" it points out that controlled shooting really can make a difference... that it is realistic to try for something more precise than "center of mass"... and that unloading the gun without hitting anything is the shooter's fault not the gun's.

IMO

 

[ceetee]

Just out of curiousity, what kind of effectiveness can you expect from, say, a .40S&W 180 gr JHP? I know... it depends on the bullet construction, but still... about how much will it have slowed, and what comparisons can be made to 9mm's, or .45's?

 

[Majic]

25 yards should be the max you expect to use a pistol if you are an average shot. 50 if you are a really good shot with a powerful round like .357 mag.

You my friend have a lot to learn about handgunning and there is more to handgunning than defensive shooting. Many handgun hunters regularly take shots out to 75 yards using nothing but iron sights. Silhouette shooters shoot out to 200 meters and optics are forbidden. In the past it was common for handgunners to shoot at the 50 yard range. Shooting at just 7 yards was unheard of.
Step over to the 50 yard and beyond ranges with a handgun. It doesn't have to be a powerful magnum with a long barrel. With a little practice you just might amaze yourself at what you can do.

 

[Ed Ames]

According to Norma's ballistics calculator, a 123gr 9mm with an original velocity of 1099fps retains 260fpe and has dropped ~7 inches at 100 yards. They don't have other handgun rounds pre-loaded and I'm not going to punch them in, but that's a reasonable example of the low end.

 

[Lupinus]

I wasnt saying it was inpossible

I was saying for defensive use it isn't a good idea because your average shooter isnt going to have much luck.

Don't believe me?

Take a look at some of the targets a good number of people at the range are making, the look like swiss cheese.

 

[nplant]

With care, I've made hits out to 500 yards with my Kimber 4" Pro Carry. Now, when I say "hits" I'm talking about making a stop-sign sized target go "pling." Not exactly precision, but I was amazed that I could hit.

Now, as for knock-down power at that range... I think you'd be lucky to do any more than scare your adversary into thinking you're too deadly to warrant closer contact.

 

[nipprdog]

My brother and I have been practicing with pistols at the 100 yard range. Shooting bowling pins, steel targets, etc. With a little practice we found that we were just as accurate with the pistols as with some ak-47's with open sights.

1. you need to work on your rifle skills.


2. you need better rifles, and or ammo.

 

[Doggieman]

is someone 300 feet away a clear threat?

Yes -

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notoriou...n/index_1.html

fascinating reading... shows you just how dangerous a lone, trained sniper can be.

 

[thegriz]

Missing the point

1. you need to work on your rifle skills.


2. you need better rifles, and or ammo.

I have rifle skills and better rifles. That's not the point. These plain jane, unmodified ak's with wolf ammo are not tack drivers at 100 yards with the existing sights. Are they more powerful and dangerous at 100 yards than the pistols? Of course. I would rather be the guy with the AK.

We also fired at 200 yards. That distance was pretty rediculous except for a 44 magnum but we were still able to put a couple shots on the target.

The lesson here for me was that our pistols were more accurate than we expected and I think, than most people expect. Also, it's good to know what you're capable of just in case you find yourself with only a pistol in a hostile situation.

For those of you who say self-defense situations only happen at short yardage have never been to West Texas where you see some wide open areas with little cover. What if you out fixing the fence, have your pistol but didn't want to lug your super-duper rifle across the field and somebody decides to shoot at you? It's nice to know your limitations and your skills. Placing several pistol shots very close to them or even hitting them at 100 yards or more will act as a great deterrent.

I'm a good shot but I'm no expert. Just take your pistol out to the range and see what it can do. It feels real good to know you can make those shots.

 

[david_the_greek]

I'm sure my pistol could shoot out to 100yrds, heck maybe more. I'm even more sure that I cannot. oh darn... looks like I'll just have to go do more shooting

 

[XDKingslayer]

I always practice to the longest distances I can attain either by accuracy or range limitations. I don't think it's right to sit here and say you'll never shoot that far in a situation, but you'll train for situations that probably won't happen either like someone breaking into your house, or someone attacking you on the street.

Accuracy at distance will help your accuracy at close range. You'll find minor imperfections in how you shoot that you usually don't see at close range.

Why limit your abilities? If all you're going to do is practice at 25 yards and less with your handgun you might as well just carry a large rock to chuck. A handgun may not be a reliable weapon out to 100 yards, but if necessary, shots on target, regardless of stopping power, will make someone take cover and help you get out of dodge.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Q: Plus, is someone 300 feet away a clear threat?

A: Yes, if he's already shooting at you!

 

[MechAg94]

It is nice to try out a pistol at longer ranges. Lets you know your limitations.

 

[chongfa]

One simple answer, JUST BECAUSE HE CAN!!!!!!!

I wouldn't personally do it, but I am not him.

 

[crunker]

What kind of AK do you have?

If possible, try to either get a new AK, or maybe an AR-47 (basically, an AR-15 that fires 7.62mm Soviet and uses standard AK-47 magazines, but has the accuracy of an AR-15). If you don't have the money, then try getting a better and longer AK barrel, optics, or visit a gunsmith.