Has 16 gauge become popular again?

[Panzerschwein]

I found a purple 16 gauge hull in a bean field a couple years back, looked fresh too.

They're still out there.

 

[bc38]

It'll be dead in 20 years.

and I've been hearing that since the 60's

 

[jaguarxk120]

If you have enough cash any of the gun makers in Europe will build a 16 gauge for you.

The three inch twenty gauge has been rammed down our throats for the last 50 years or so.

A do-all shell (ya sure), I'd like to see someone shoot a few rounds of trap with those three inch shells

and a six pound gun!

 

[PabloJ]

What is wrong with using 16ga Remington game or the so called dove loads in old Model 12 provided gun is in very good mechanical condition? Didn't Sherman Bell establish that shooting 70mm shells in 65mm or 67mm chamber raises pressure by about 10%?

 

[Panzerschwein]

and I've been hearing that since the 60's

Like I said, still around. I did find a purple 16 gauge shell in a field not long ago.

 

[DDDWho]

I just got my first 16 gauge at a gun show yesterday - a Winchester Model 12! So now that I've joined the ranks of fellow 16 gaugers, I'm trying to find low pressure 2 9/16" shells that'll fit. Seems like almost every place sells 2 3/4" shells, and a few sell 2 1/2" shells, which I assume will fit. I'd rather not enlarge the chamber to 2 3/4". And if I did, I assume the ejection port would also have to be opened up as well? Regardless, those of you with the older, smaller chambers, where are you getting your 2 1/2" shells? Only places I've found online are polywad.com and RSTshells.com. Any other places?

Are you sure the chamber and ejection port has not been lengthened? Lots of those old short chambered shotguns have been so done. My life long hunting buddy used his Dad's A5 that had been lengthened.

 

[Sav .250]

You found an empty shell case. There is at least ....one!

 

[jaguarxk120]

Are you sure the chamber and ejection port has not been lengthened? Lots of those old short chambered shotguns have been so done. My life long hunting buddy used his Dad's A5 that had been lengthened.

A ejection port on the Model 12 does not have to be lengthened, the ejector sets back from the port opening and when the bolt/case reaches the ejector
the spent case is flipped out of the port.
Many, many gun smiths made lots of money changing Model 12's ejection ports when they did not need it.

equin how do you know the gun is chambered for the shorter shells?
The 16 gauge 2 9/16 chamber was changed to 2 3/4 inch length in 1927, when was your gun made?

 

[DDDWho]

A ejection port on the Model 12 does not have to be lengthened, the ejector sets back from the port opening and when the bolt/case reaches the ejector
the spent case is flipped out of the port.
Many, many gun smiths made lots of money changing Model 12's ejection ports when they did not need it.

equin how do you know the gun is chambered for the shorter shells?
The 16 gauge 2 9/16 chamber was changed to 2 3/4 inch length in 1927, when was your gun made?

I'm not familiar what ejection ports if any had to be lengthened. Maybe my friends Browning did not have to be but it was. There was a notch on the bottom rear of the ejection port showing its original length. To be honest that Browning is the only shotgun I'm aware of that was altered because of the longer shells. Otherwise I know nothing about about short chambered shotguns.

 

[equin]

Are you sure the chamber and ejection port has not been lengthened? Lots of those old short chambered shotguns have been so done. My life long hunting buddy used his Dad's A5 that had been lengthened.

Good point. I don't know if it has. I guess I'll need to measure it to be sure.

 

[equin]

A ejection port on the Model 12 does not have to be lengthened, the ejector sets back from the port opening and when the bolt/case reaches the ejector
the spent case is flipped out of the port.
Many, many gun smiths made lots of money changing Model 12's ejection ports when they did not need it.

equin how do you know the gun is chambered for the shorter shells?
The 16 gauge 2 9/16 chamber was changed to 2 3/4 inch length in 1927, when was your gun made?

Good info to know about the ejection port and the chamber length change. Thanks! I got it at a gun show, and the seller claimed it was chambered for 2 9/16" shells, which I thought nothing of at the time until I started looking for those size shells. But if I read the Winchester serial no. charts correctly, I think mine was made sometime in the early 30's. When I get home later, I'll look to see if the chamber size is marked somewhere, and then measure it just to make sure a previous owner didn't enlarge it, although I suppose if it's actually chambered for 2 3/4" then you'd think there would be no need to enlarge it further.

Anyway, I'm very new to 16 gauges and the Model 12, as most can probably tell with all my questions, but I appreciate all the patient and very informative responses!

 

[DDDWho]

When I get home later, I'll look to see if the chamber size is marked somewhere, and then measure it just to make sure a previous owner didn't enlarge it, although I suppose if it's actually chambered for 2 3/4" then you'd think there would be no need to enlarge it further.

Anyway, I'm very new to 16 gauges and the Model 12, as most can probably tell with all my questions, but I appreciate all the patient and very informative responses!

I feel fairly certain you'll find the chamber length marked on the barrel just forward of the receiver. On my 2 12s its on the left side.

 

[paulsj]

Nothing has to be done to old Model 12 16ga. All amigo got to do is get some 1oz game loads. Walmart uaually carries then fancy Winchester ones Fabrique en Australia.

 

[jaguarxk120]

My reference book is "Winchester Shotguns" by Dennis Adler

Page 79 bottom of page listing chamber length's.

Also please note the 16 gauge you have is made on the 20 gauge frame (all 16's are made on the 20 gauge frame), makes for a very nice handling gun.

Now go out and find a Ithaca 16 gauge gun.

 

[paulsj]

My reference book is "Winchester Shotguns" by Dennis Adler

Page 79 bottom of page listing chamber length's.

Also please note the 16 gauge you have is made on the 20 gauge frame (all 16's are made on the 20 gauge frame), makes for a very nice handling gun.

Now go out and find a Ithaca 16 gauge gun.

Actually both 16ga and 20ga model 12s were made on 16ga frames. Old plain barrel fix choke 16ga Ithaca 37 are nice handling guns. The only problem is wood spliting in back of trigger guard.

 

[jaguarxk120]

The Winchester Model 12 in 20 gauge was released to the public in 1913.

The 12 gauge and 16 gauge guns followed in 1914.

The 20 gauge is made on a 20 gauge frame and the 16 is built on the 20 gauge frame.

Please note that the Ithaca Model 37's each gauge has it's own frame.

 

[equin]

I feel fairly certain you'll find the chamber length marked on the barrel just forward of the receiver. On my 2 12s its on the left side.

Thanks! Found it on the left side like you said and it's 2 3/4"! Also says "Winchester Proof Steel." So I guess that takes care of the chamber size issue. I think the gun show vendor may have gotten mine confused with another, possibly older M12 at his table and mistakenly told me mine was 2 9/16." Now to look for my first 16 gauge 2 3/4" shells....

 

[Panzerschwein]

You found an empty shell case. There is at least ....one!

I also found a few 28 gauge hulls at the ATA Grand one time. Of all the tens of thousands of mostly 12 guage and some 20 gauge hulls I picked up during my time working there, I only found a few 28 gauge hulls. I do not recall ever finding a single 16 gauge hull when working the traps.

But like I said, they're still out there... I think it's kind of a niche thing, and has become fairly unique. What I am about to say might ruffle some feathers but I think the 16 gauge is like the .41 Remington Magnum, people don't seek them out because they are really that good ballistically, they seek them out because they want to be different and have something not everybody has.

This of course does not ring true for all .41 Rem Mag and 16 gauge owners, especially those who have had the guns for a long time. To be fair I do the same thing and enjoy showing up at the range with 9mm Makarovs and .38/200 Webleys etc.

 

[jaguarxk120]

You will not ruffle any feathers out here, many of us know the advantages of the 16 gauge and the guns made for the shell.

Lighter faster handling guns made when guns were made by gun smiths not assemblers.

It took a real gun smith to build a Model 12, at the end of production the productions cost's were much more than what Winchester was charging for the gun.

You have a all steel, no stampings or plastic or injection molded parts used, no alloy.

Because of the design of the action only one action bar/operating bar is needed, that's why they are so slick in operation.

If you look closely at the guns made that use TWO action bars, you will see the bars are needed to prevent parts from falling out.

You won't find any 16 gauge shells at the ATA Grand, 16 gauge is not on any of the shooting events.

 

[paulsj]

Both 16ga & 20ga model 12 were made on same 16ga frame that is why you will note "16" stamped on some parts of real old 20ga guns. Mine was from 1918 and had 25" barrel.

 

[jaguarxk120]

Both 16ga & 20ga model 12 were made on same 16ga frame that is why you will note "16" stamped on some parts of real old 20ga guns. Mine was from 1918 and had 25" barrel.

What reference material are you using???

A assembly number does not mean the 20 gauge guns were built on 16 gauge frames! There were NO 16 gauge frames.

 

[everydefense]

I've never seen a box of 16 ga ammo. Not that I've looked for it in particular, but I've never stumbled across it.

 

[Panzerschwein]

You will not ruffle any feathers out here, many of us know the advantages of the 16 gauge and the guns made for the shell.

Lighter faster handling guns made when guns were made by gun smiths not assemblers.

It took a real gun smith to build a Model 12, at the end of production the productions cost's were much more than what Winchester was charging for the gun.

You have a all steel, no stampings or plastic or injection molded parts used, no alloy.

Because of the design of the action only one action bar/operating bar is needed, that's why they are so slick in operation.

If you look closely at the guns made that use TWO action bars, you will see the bars are needed to prevent parts from falling out.

You won't find any 16 gauge shells at the ATA Grand, 16 gauge is not on any of the shooting events.

I've owned an M12 riot gun at one time. Sweet shooter.

 

[kudu]

I am far from an authority on 16 gauge, but usually some shells are available at most any Wal-mart that I have been into. As a gun they are probably less than a .01%, 1 out of a 1000, possibly even less than that. Yes they can be found considering the sheer number of shotguns available. I believe 28 gauge is much more common and it is a gun used in Registered Skeet Competition where the 16 is not. There is a certain following that will always love the 16 gauge, and company's will make a few every now and then to satisfy that following.

I have shot a few 16's, but never developed an interest in owning one, I would probably get a 24 or 32 gauge before I would buy a 16, just for the rarity factor.

 

[paulsj]

Browning Arms is giving us hope by making BPS and limited runs of Citoris. They also market Winchester loads under their name. The 16ga ammo is loaded in Australia just like Winchester loads at Walmart. I sure miss Old Croc cheese from Australia they used to carry.