Has Anti-Gun Propaganda Made the AR15 a less viable defensive rifle?

[Furncliff]

jury will be tainted by anti-gun propaganda and equate his use of the AR15 with a lust for violence or vigilantism. /QUOTE]


If your friend goes to trial for a shooting... one could argue that during his investigation the D.A found him outside the bounds of a self defense situation, and believes and will try to convince the jury, that your friend acted wrongly. This is bad to start with. Some jurors in some locations might buy the lust and vigilantism explanation that might be used by the D.A..The EBR does look evil to some, but it's speculation not evidence. "Some" jurors isn't 12 jurors. The EBR might have some impact but the weight of the evidence would have to point to a crime not one ejaculation of speculation.


...in a just world.

 

[TrailWolf]

This is all you need to know:

It will come down to who has the better lawyer.

If you are a responsible (and intelligent) gun owner, you will find a well versed, competent and successful self-defense lawyer NOW so you know exactly who to call should that unlikely and unfortunate event arise.

Enough said and that is that.

 

[gym]

Nothing in this life is guaranteed, that's why we have guns to help protect us. My suggestion is to allow the weapons, to do the job they were designed for.
I would worry more about the immediate future, rather than worry about the trial that you would not be at, if it were not for the availability of that firearm.
I don't think we need to be so concerned with the caliber or type of gun, as long as you did what the law would presumed as reasonable.
If any person breaks into a home with the intent of doing the occupant harm, they should be stopped with whatever is available to the occupant.
If a frying pan was faster than my shotgun I would use it, and it sure wasn't designed for that purpose.
In my case a 45 is my walking around gun, that may be considered normal or odd by some, frankly I don't care. It is a compact weapon with proven reliability, the XDS platform makes it a convenient package and that is my weapon of choice.
If I had time I would grab my shotgun, depending on the circumstances and where I was, how much time I had etc.. I don't leave my AR laying around, so handgun or shotgun is my preference.
I would have to load the shotgun, that may take too long. I have hollow points in my handguns so over penetration shouldn't be a problem.

 

[MrCleanOK]

Trading in the most popular rifle in America, used by law enforcement officers for their own protection, for Elmer Fudd's deer rifle. . . . hmmm. I own a lever action .30-30 too, but it's about the last choice I'd made for home defense.

 

[HorseSoldier]

AR-15 is what the police use. That is a pretty good defense.

The ubiquity of the AR as a police patrol carbine should, indeed, be a good counter argument to the scary black rifle argument, though which line of thinking would get traction with a specific jury is always an open question.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

We have pistols, revolvers, a .357 lever and an 870 that are prepped for HD. There is also a 6920 and the more I think about it that is likely the best choice for me to hand my wife (with a 30 round mag installed) if our world ever came to that.

 

[SabbathWolf]

This is all you need to know:

It will come down to who has the better lawyer.

If you are a responsible (and intelligent) gun owner, you will find a well versed, competent and successful self-defense lawyer NOW so you know exactly who to call should that unlikely and unfortunate event arise.

Enough said and that is that.

Truly good advice.
I have a lawyer already that I've used in the past who is very good.
What's even nicer is he has an NRA poster hanging on the wall in his office.
And.....I can actually afford his fees too.
Plus, he also works as a public defender too and already knows all the weaknesses of the local prosecutor....lol

 

[Certaindeaf]

Did your friend sell that rifle? I think a lot of people did\have.. buy low and all that business.
I'd rather have a semi auto shotgun, pistol or rifle for laying down lead than a lever gun though.

 

[Hacker15E]

Hacker, I can state quite emphatically that Dr. Meyer would not agree that there is "zero evidence." In fact, he would (and has many times here, and elsewhere) explained that what the gun IS -- its appearance, name, coloring, characteristics, reputation, etc. -- can have quite an effect on a jury's findings.

I was referring to this specific theoretical situation: the latest round of "anti AR-15 hysteria" and some theoretical future jury.

We have no evidence that the latest propaganda has had any such impact with respect to the AR-15.

 

[hentown]

The OP's friend is an idiot. It really is just as simple as that. Besides, how many ARs do you think are actually used in s.d. shootings? Wouldn't be many. Why would somebody be so fear-based that he'd think that there'd be a jury involved in a legitimate s.d. shooting, regardless of weapon used? That really is absurd.

 

[xfyrfiter]

If you live in a state such as NM where the laws for self defense are weak, as in no castle doctrine or stand your ground laws, there will in all likelyhood be a civil proceeding requiring a very good defense you might find yourself in a frying pan and wishing you were in the fire. A good friend did and it cost him everything. THE OTHER PARTIES FAMILY HAD POLITICAL AND FINANCIAL CLOUT.

 

[Acelaw]

As a defense attorney, I'm personally fine with relying on the "a good shoot is a good shoot" mantra. If I shoot someone with my AR it will be a person in my house. If it's someone in my house, I don't think It'd matter if I shot them with an AR emblazoned with "come get some" stickers or a plainjane 10/22.

 

[Torian]

Dave A writes:




Dave A, I used to think that, too. I later learned that a .223 caliber round, by the nature of its long and narrow profile, has a tendency to tumble on impact, reducing forward momentum. Numerous demonstrations have shown that such a bullet penetrates far fewer sections of drywall, because of that tumbling and resulting "keyholing", than do typical handgun projectiles, such as 9mm or .38 Special bullets (even JHP ones.)

Only certain types of .223 / 5.56 loads have a tendency to tumble. M855 is an example of one that generally does not, which is why we often complain about this being a standard loading for most of the armed forces. It's a great penetrator, but not well-suited to being an antipersonnel round.

The heavier BTHP loads I have in .223 (PRVI) do like to tumble on impact. I wish I could find the same round in some 5.56 loadings without going broke.

 

[SabbathWolf]

As a defense attorney, I'm personally fine with relying on the "a good shoot is a good shoot" mantra. If I shoot someone with my AR it will be a person in my house. If it's someone in my house, I don't think It'd matter if I shot them with an AR emblazoned with "come get some" stickers or a plainjane 10/22.

Now you are my kind of lawyer!!!
Tell me....How do you feel about claymore mines in the back yard?

 

[joeschmoe]

Less than 2% of all prosecutions actually end up in front of a jury any way. Most are plea bargained (or dropped) before it gets there.

 

[r1derbike]

In my case a 45 is my walking around gun, that may be considered normal or odd by some, frankly I don't care. It is a compact weapon with proven reliability, the XDS platform makes it a convenient package and that is my weapon of choice.

The XD-S is also my carry sidearm. Coupled with Ranger Ts, it is a formidable force, in a carry package. I love it!

It is my 2nd SD firearm. Carry always. 1,000 rounds and counting...

 

[skimbell]

"There's zero evidence of anti-firearm prejudices having that impact. Complete speculation with no basis..."

 

[Kiln]

If you go to trial in a blue state you'd better have a good lawyer. Just saying, people in blue states generally tend to be biased against scary guns with massive assault killing clips.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Only certain types of .223 / 5.56 loads have a tendency to tumble. M855 is an example of one that generally does not, which is why we often complain about this being a standard loading for most of the armed forces. It's a great penetrator, but not well-suited to being an antipersonnel round.

855 tumbles on impact. It does not fragment as reliably as M193, which is ostensibly the source of its poor reputation for lethality.

My personal belief -- having shot a small mountain of M855 along the way, as well as a lot of Mk 262 and some M855A1 is that M855's complex bullet does not lend itself to consistent accuracy between lots of ammunition. Some are pretty good, some are 4+ MOA ammo (6 MOA or so is the acceptance standard). Between human failures under stress/combat shooting and sloppy ammo, I attribute most lethality complaints about M855 to misses.

 

[thump_rrr]

So do I use my small caliber AR-15 modern sporting rifle or my
Medium caliber SKS which happens to be a former communist block military rifle which has beautiful wood furniture?
There is also my late fathers 12ga which to my knowledge has a kill count (of small game) in the hundreds.
That gun knows how to kill and has tasted blood. Will that sway the jury knowing I chose a single shot break action shotgun which has a proven track record for killing for over 50 years?

This stupidity has to stop somewhere.
I'd rather be judged by 12 of my peers than carried by 6 of my friends.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

This is like wondering if 55gr or 62 gr is more are more lethal bullet. 99.9999% of the time it will not make the slightest bit of difference. Hypothetically, you could be in a questionable (George Zimmerman -style) SD scenario, with a hypothetical juror who thinks that your ugly gun is why you are guilty. However, he may also think you are guilty because you worked for a company he doesn't like, or because you don't have a job or because your wife is too sexy, or too frumpy. Some things are just too uncertain to worry about.

 

[Kleanbore]

Some good points have been made here:

• The AR-15 is an extremely effective defensive weapon, and it is less likely to overpenetrate structures than some other types of firearms.
• Current hysteria notwithstnding, jury simulation (and that is a very good way of gauging possible outcomes for types of trials that occur infrequently) indicate that in a jury trial, the appearance of an AR-15 or pistol grip shotgun or of some other firearms may influence jurors to view the defendant unfavorably.

The latter would not arise if the case were truly open and shut.

In a shooting within the home in most jurisdictions, the defender is presumed to have been justified in the use of deadly force in the event of an unlawful (and sometimes forcible) entry, or of a refusal to leave.

However, such a presumption is rebuttable.

Things that can raise questions about the defender's use of deadly force can include the following:

• Some kind of existing or prior relationship between the defender or someone in the family and the person shot that might indicate motive.
• The person shot having been invited in; yes, that water heater repairman may present an imminent threat of serious harm, but his having been invited in rebuts the aformentioned presumption.
• The door having been left unlocked, raising the possibility of such an invitation.
• Contradictory or unfavorable but plausible testimony by an accomplice, an earwitness, or someone else, whether true or not.
• Other indications that the defender may have been predisposed to the violent use of force--posters, Internet postings, T-shirts, and so forth.

I'm sure there are others.

Once the case has gone to trial, the triers of fact will decide on the basis of the totality of the evidence pieced together after the fact--and on the basis of impressions.

Will the stressed defender impress them favorably? Has anyone ever seen how nice an impression a cleaned-up and well-coached street thug can make in court? Do you really want that "black rifle" sitting there as Exhibit A during the whole proceeding?

I would choose the AR-15 over the .30-30 for reasons others have mentioned, but I do not have an AR-15. For me, it would not be a useful defensive weapon unless the alignment of the moon and the stars was such that a home invasion were to occur at such a moment that I could get to the weapon timely without leaving my spouse unprotected. I do not consider that likely.

For me, that mitigates against the choice of a long arm of any kind.

However, were I to purchase an AR type rifle, I would likely select a light colored "sporter" without rails, etc.

I would do so on the basis of Dr. Meyer's work.

 

[readyeddy]

Bottom line is you will need a good lawyer if you are charged with a crime as a result of a defensive shooting.

Use a 30-30 and the prosecutor can easily refer to the gun as a "high powered rifle" that was unreasonable overkill and intended to bring down large and dangerous game. Of course we know the truth, but it will take a talented defense attorney to know both guns and the law to rebut such an assertion.

Trying to boil it all down to types of firearms dumbs down the subject matter to the point of living with a false sense of security.

First and foremost, one would need to be able to establish facts to justify the use of deadly force based upon the doctrine of self defense or the defense of others. If this can't be established, then the choice of gun will likely be of no help.

But of course, if your gun is an "evil black rifle", then you need a lawyer that knows what he or she is doing, and if necessary, you will need an effective expert witness to explain why your gun was appropriate and reasonable under the circumstances.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by readyeddy: But of course, if your gun is an "evil black rifle", then you need a lawyer that knows what he or she is doing, and if necessary, you will need an effective expert witness to explain why your gun was appropriate and reasonable under the circumstances.

Your attorney would be most unlikely to want to open that line of discussion.

All the prosecution has to do is have the police investigator state that the firearm was the one that was used and introduce it into evidence. The jurors will see it--at that point and day in and day out.

 

[Warp]

Unless you live in a brick house I would avoid the use of a rifle. The bullet will almost certainly over penetrate your foe, exit your house, and enter a neighbors house with leathel energy.

You are incorrect.

A proper 5.56 or .223 round will penetrate walls as much OR LESS than many other choices, even handgun rounds.

Go poke around this site for awhile and see what actually happens in the real world when various projectiles encounter interior residential walls.

You should also probably look into what happens when a 5.56/.223 round strikes a person, because, again, other choices, including many handgun rounds, penetrate as much OR LESS than many other choices, even handgun rounds.