Has Anyone Actually Experimented With Frangible .223 Ammo?

[Saw-Bones]

Usually my home defense practice has been with a handgun. Lately, I have occasionally been going through the paces using an AR-15 pistol with a 10.5” barrel. Jacketed and FMJ ammo would not be suitable to my situation due to these projectiles easily going through drywall and wreaking havoc.

While I have seen ads for frangible ammo, I have never actually used it or seen it used. I would appreciate it if our members could provide me with some insight and opinions about their experience with it.

Thanks….. Doc

 

[readyeddy]

XM193 will fragment in ballistic gel and penetrate around 14".

 

[Saw-Bones]

XM193 is not what I had in mind about frangible ammo.

I was referring to commercial ammo designed to break up in pieces immediately on contact thus significantly reducing mass and limiting penetration.

If anyone has this kind of experience I would appreciate a reply..... thanks, Doc

 

[I6turbo]

I was given 664 rounds of 125 grain .308 frangible but have never fired any of it. I've researched it a good bit and there doesn't appear to be much downside to it as far as plinking ammo goes UNLESS it also employs the "Green" primers that reportedly leaves some residue in the barrel that can be abrasive (not corrosive, but abrasive) when subsequent bullets grind it down. If you want to shoot steel and can't use regular rounds for some reason, frangible bullets seem to be a good solution if you avoid the Green primers. Otherwise, the only reason that I will perhaps someday fire the frangible rounds I have is that it's in some nice brass for reloading.

I don't recall if I drew a solid conclusion from my research as to whether frangible is enough safer for HD to make it a better choice in a given situation. I know on steel it's proven to fragment (turn to dust) very reliably, but when you're only talking about drywall or a 2x4, I don't think it's enough of a barrier to remove much risk of over penetration. Safer, yes, but safe enough to make a lot of difference? IIRC, I don't think so.

Here's a test: https://oneweaponanytool.wordpress.com/2014/08/30/frangible-ammo-for-home-defense/

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I've looked at frangible .223 for shooting steel with my AR at one of my buddies spots that's limited range, IE close.

I have no idea about using it for SD purposes.

I'll be interested in the responses from this thread.

 

[CapnMac]

The actual tests of FMJ, SP and the like suggest that 5.56 is not as over-penetrative as we might assume.
Box of Truth, and Choppin Block, et al, suggest really limited danger after only penetrating one 2x4 wall. Which is far different than shot or handgun projectiles in similar circumstances.
The professionals I know all tend to have a low opinion of the frangible 5.56 ammo. The ammo tends to have very low gel penetration depths--good for unintended targets, not so much for intended ones. I have heard that the ammo does not group reliably when related to other ammo. Hard to stay up to speed using ball ammo if the SD ammo shoots 8L6R ot POA which might be a foot away from FMJ POI. Which is hard to test at 40-50¢/round let alone 75-80¢/round.

 

[JO JO]

I don't know about rifle but we used to train with frangible ammo in our handguns and it was filthy perhaps it may of been the brand but it was dirty and would cause jams in the handgun after a few boxes fired rifle may be different sorry not much help

 

[RPZ]

Try some of the 145 grain varmint loads by Hornady etc. At least at the velocities from rifle length barrels they will go to pieces quickly on just about anything. From a pistol barrel not quite so sure, but it would be simple to do some tests with layers of dry wall, light timber, etc

 

[grampajack]

Sorry, no experience with frangible ammo. With that said, there's no magic bullet that will penetrate to the vitals in a person and not zip through an interior wall with enough energy left over to kill someone on the other side. I would also add that true frangible ammo, while it will powder on steel, will not necessarily fragment in drywall. I would stick with what's tried and true, like Speer Gold Dot.

If you're really worried about overpenetration, then you should look into a 5.7mm with SS198LF (don't use SS197; it penetrates further than some 5.56) or a 12 gauge loaded with #4 buckshot. I would feel outgunned with either one, but both options would walk that knife's edge between safety concerns and keeping the minimum level of penetration needed to reach the vitals. Just keep in mind that you're talking about a clean shot with no barriers or appendages involved. If they're hiding behind your couch or covering their chest with their arms then all bets are off. And there's still no guarantee that either one is really safer. They will both go through an interior wall and come out with enough energy to kill someone on the other side.

 

[Saw-Bones]

@ 16Turbo - I went to the link that you supplied and I was disheartened by the experimenter’s results with the Dynamic Research Tech’s frangible ammo. He suggested trying another brand which might be a good idea.

@ CapnMac - Frangible ammo would not suit my needs if it goes through a 2x4. I was not expecting the projectile to kill the assailant, but rather incapacitate him long enough so I could go to my handgun and finish the job if there was any expectation of his continuing the attack. I’ve done this before in Cambodia and Laos, so I’m not squeamish about it.

The longest shot inside my house is from the family room, past the kitchen to the back door, 50’, and I wouldn’t expect factory ammo to be a foot off POA at that distance. The tests in 16Turbo’s link gave no indication of that.

@ Jo Jo - Filthy ammo that causes jams would be a problem. I wouldn’t anticipate shooting very much of it… just to sight in at close range and check for function then start with a clean AR-15 pistol at the ready.

@ RPZ - A 145gr. bullet in a .223 loading… did you mean a 45gr. bullet? If so, I’ve heard of some thin jacketed varmint loadings being “explosive” on contact that might be worth looking into.

@ grampajack - See my response to CapnMac regarding lethality of frangible ammo. I currently load my shotgun with #4 Buck, but legal length shotgun barrels make it unwieldy in tight confines. There is, however, a pricy AOW shotgun that might do the job with some downloaded #4 buckshot.

Thanks to all for the replies..... Doc

 

[Deus Machina]

Anything that will do anything more than hurt like the dickens will go right through drywall. The benefit of #4 shot is that it looses energy through drywall--but it's still likely to zip right through the first wall or two.

@ CapnMac - Frangible ammo would not suit my needs if it goes through a 2x4. I was not expecting the projectile to kill the assailant, but rather incapacitate him long enough so I could go to my handgun and finish the job if there was any expectation of his continuing the attack.

If he continues the attack, you're still firing under stress and 'in combat', which is still likely to result in misses. And, surprisingly but according to most of the testing I've see, .223 is less likely to remain lethal after passing through drywall than most handgun rounds, due to the speed and construction contributing to more disruption. Especially JHP or the backheavy styles.

There is no good reason to 'shoot to incapacitate' with a rifle, then return to a less capable weapon. Why? I mean, really. Shooting at all is lethal force. Putting yourself in a position where you actively act to make it less lethal, then choose to use it, means that you don't consider it worth lethal force, and therefore are not justified in the shot. And a defense attorney--or prosecutor, depending on your location and how that first trial goes--will grab that and run like Gump.

 

[Davek1977]

yeah, can't say i'd like to be your attorney when you're questioned as to why you thought it was prudent to shoot hi with a rifle, then retrieve a different weapon to basically effect a killing, or incapacitating, shot. If its worth shooting, its worth incapacitating instantly with the weapon thats in your hand, or frankly, you shouldn't be shooting it at all. one does not fire to discourage a threat, imo, one shoots to ELIMINATE the threat. read some basic self-defense books, maybe attend a class or two, and come back and tell us in how many situations do they recommend engaging the threat intially with a rifle, then finishing the fight with a pistol thats been retrieved after wounding your assailent with a rifle. no offense, but can you explain why on earth you'd think this is a prudent, remotely intelligent, way to apporach a life or death situation

 

[1KPerDay]

I fired 1K rounds of Grace ammo sintered copper .223 indoors at a private range on steel. Bit smoky and dirty but that was the load. The rounds all worked. On steel the sintered copper may have been a bit safer up close than M193 but it chewed up the steel worse, more like 7n6 or M855 does. AR500 took damage. I'd recommend AR600 for close up rifle stuff.

 

[hdwhit]

Saw-Bones wrote:
...these projectiles easily going through drywall and wreaking havoc.

As shown in the article that l6turbo linked to, frangible bullets are likely to penetrate drywall without breaking up and still retain sufficient mass and velocity to wound on the other side.

If using a round indoors where a family member might be on the other side of the intruder, you need ammunition that will hold together long enough to pass through clothing, reach the target, deposit all its energy in the target with near certainty that it will not pass through combined with construction that virtually ensures that it will not pass through drywall if you miss. What I use to meet that requirement is a 9mm or 38 Special pistol and these: https://www.corbon.com/glaser-safety-slug.html

The Glaser Safety Slug is designed to produce large, shallow incapacitating wounds without over-penetrating the target or going through the wall of a house (or fuselage of an aircraft). And that's precisely what I want: A living intruder taken out of the fight who can face justice and nobody else in the family maimed or killed by a stray shot.

 

[grampajack]

Saw-Bones, I'm just going to be blunt. Your entire philosophy for home defense is more likely to get you killed or landed in prison than it is to protect anyone.

First off, your choice of weapons is not sound. Forget the pistol, forget the AOW, and get yourself a carbine with a solid stock. If you're super worried about length, SBR or SBS it. However, when you go down to these ultra short barrel lengths you lose a lot of the ballistics that make .223 desirable for home defense. It also has a negative impact on reliability, and if you've got a 10'' barrel you'd better make sure your bolt is top shelf through and through.

As someone else also mentioned, your idea of wounding someone isn't sound either. Gunfights last a matter of seconds, not enough time for you to pussyfoot around with someone then go get another gun, or even necessarily draw another gun for that matter. If you make the decision that lethal force is required you have to land lethal shots on target as quickly as possible or you're going to get shot or stabbed or beat to death with your fireplace poker. And if by some miracle you do manage to get to your sidearm to deliver the coup de grace that will likely result in legal trouble.

Also, in most scenarios your family is going to be more at risk from the bad guy's bullets than your own, and chances are he will be using FMJ. So you want to stop him as quickly as possible to keep him from firing back. The way to do that is with well respected .223 ammo, like the Speer Gold Dot, fired from a 14 plus inch barrel.

 

[LocoGringo]

My anecdote is this. I snuck a couple of frangible rounds from work with the intention of using them for home defense just like most are assuming here. I finally gave up on the idea for the fear of it not being adequate, so I took them to the range to test them. I shot a cantaloupe at 50 yards with them from an 18" barreled rifle. The result was just down right bizarre. There was no exit, but the entrance was a crater. It's as if the round entered the fruit, hit the back wall, disintegrated as designed, but reflected back through the entrance blowing it out and creating the enormous hole. I wish I had photos, but I did this before I got a smart phone. After seeing this, I decided that it's not a good idea for home defense.

We use frangible ammo on our indoor range for both rifle and pistol for pistol and rifle qualification. I couldn't tell you the brand we use for pistol, but my experience is the opposite in that it is SUPER clean. After about 100 rounds, I field strip the pistol (was a Sig 226, now a Glock 17), wipe it down, relube and I'm done. There is virtually nothing on the patch I run down the bore. The frangible rifle ammo is surprisingly accurate and consistent also. I regularly score between a 194-198 out of a possible 200 with head shots and 50 yard shots on a reduced size target.

 

[I6turbo]

That is bizarre about the cantaloupe, to the point that it seems almost impossible, doesn't it?. And encouraging about the accuracy. I think I'll try some of the .308 I have.

 

[dekibg]

going back to finish someone off with another weapon is a good way for big legal trouble.
if you were doing it in Laos and Cambodia as you said, you will probably not get away with it in homeland ( no-war zone).
btw, it is nothing to brag about or be proud of ...

 

[LocoGringo]

I6turbo, it does seem unbelievable, but given what I saw, it's the only explanation I can come up with.

At any rate, I would not use them for anything but fun target practice to experiment. Leave the serious, life changing work to the appropriate ammo.

 

[strambo]

I agree that your approach does not seem sound. The only way to physically incapacitate someone is to destroy the CNS or cause enough trauma and blood loss hat they lose consciousness. The CNS is a small target and the vital organs and vessels are deep enough you want good penetration to reliably reach them.

So, to plan to shoot them with a shallow penetrating round, then if they keep fighting transition to a handgun seems backwards to me. The most effective and accurate platform is already in your hands, but you are going to now take the time to transition to a less accurate and powerful weapon to finish it? In the middle of the night, what is the logistical set up to have both carbine and handgun available?

A 5.56 of any flavor typically penetrates through the same or less interior walls than any handgun 9mm-.45 or any buckshot, so it is already the least penetrative chambering (though walls) you could choose that is very effective in stopping humans. Go with a 75-77g OTM or a bonded SP like the speer, federal fusion etc. in the AR pistol and give it a RDS and light. If they aren't incapacitated...still transition, just not to a handgun, transition to the head.

If you are dead set on the frangible then transition idea...then load the first 2 shots frangible and the rest with a better stopper, then you just keep shooting if the first 2 didn't incapacitate them, no need to grab an entirely different gun.

 

[Ramone]

I'm not sure if it's classified as frangible, but I think that the Barnes 50gr Varmint Grenade would serve your desires well.

I've only used them in my handloads ( and got excellent accuracy) but I think they are available from Black Hills.

 

[MistWolf]

Frangible ammo can cause damage to suppressors and certain muzzle devices, such as the Battlecomp.

With the right ammo, the 5.56/223 will give good terminal performance from barrels as short as 10.5 inches at house defense ranges.

Most frangible ammo, like the Glaser Safety Slug, don't give dependable terminal performance

 

[CapnMac]

The Glaser handgun ammo has a very depressing record on the street, which is not helped by retail prices near $1/round.
Down vests have "defeated" Glasers (around 50% of the shot penetrated, but only about 1 inch).
Glaser is also notorious for shooting to a significantly different POI versus othe ammo using the same POA.

Be advised that #4 carries through a lot of drywall in in-the-house sorts of distances. You pretty much have to get down to #7, #7 1/2 to not have penetrating energy 12" behind a single 2x4 cavity wall at 21' (7 yards).

It sounds backwards, but a 60-65gr projo loses energy faster than 115, 154, or 200gr sized round do, even at 3x velocity differences.
My current .223 go-to are the 62gr Nosler Varmint loads. For one, I know exactly where they wil go (and they are within 1 MOA of FMJ, which is less than 1/8" at 10 yards). For another, they upset going throguh drywall middling consistently, particularly at oblique angles.

 

[ponchh]

I am a big fan of frangible ammo as long as it is DRT. After I found these and used them I am convinced they might be the best bullet on the planet. Things to know( that I have learned )
A 55 gr frangible is the same length and bearing surface as a 68gr match bullet, they will go thru 3" of pine ( that's all I have tried so far) exit hole is same size as entry. When they hit a deer entry hole is about two fingers wide, meat and fat around entry will be blown out like a exit hole. Looks like pressure builds up inside and blows out. Blood will fly four feet from impact with meat and fat mixed. Lungs and heart will be like jello. No exit hole, but will be peppered hide on far side
I have pictures if I only knew how to put them on here. I don't make anything if you use them, I don't lose anything if you don't, but if you want to kill whatever is in front of you these frangibles will get it done.

 

[792mauser]

I bought several thousand (3k~) of these frangible 50g 5.56 rounds. They foul pretty quick and are plinking accurate. Shot some at a friend's steel target and pocked 'em up pretty good at ~100m. They drilled straight through his (probably mild) steel handgun targets when he tried em out on 'em.

They seem like good plinker bulletsand nothing more