Has anyone tried this .357 ammo?

[tipoc]

This is a load that Buffalo Bore is offering that claims velocities that I haven't heard of before from the 357 this side of fuzzy memories.

This is it:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=103

It claims...

" 4-inch S&W L frame Mt. Gun

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard cast LFN = 1375 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr JHC = 1411 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1485 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Jacketed Hollow Point = 1603 fps"

A JHC bullet (Jacketed Hollow Cavity) is a bullet offered from Sierra. In this case a 170 gr. bullet doing 1485 from a 4" barrel.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/product/38-caliber-357-158-gr-jhc/

BB is usually accurate, if optimistic, about the velocities achieved with it's ammo. I've also seen signs of over-pressure from some of their ammo.

I'll try it myself soon. I tend to favor mid range ammo for defensive purposes against humans but if this works it could be a good woods load.

Have folks had any experience with this load?

 

[Mr. Mosin]

It seems reminiscent of the old .357 loadings. Not today's weak kneed crippled .357

 

[ericuda]

Pretty warm but they make good ammo. I have gone to 1350 with 158 lswc so velocity is high but obtainable. I would use my n frame or gp100 though.

 

[fxvr5]

It seems reminiscent of the old .357 loadings. Not today's weak kneed crippled .357

What were the ballistics of the old 357 loadings?

 

[Mr. Mosin]

What were the ballistics of the old 357 loadings?

I am no handloader, do the exact loadings are unknown to me, but from my understanding the old .357 loadings from a service revolver touched 1500 fps regularly.

 

[George P]

Sounds like my wrist hurting just reading those velocities................

 

[fxvr5]

I am no handloader, do the exact loadings are unknown to me, but from my understanding the old .357 loadings from a service revolver touched 1500 fps regularly.

What bullet weight and what barrel length? Bullet speed without those details are meaningless.

 

[edwardware]

What were the ballistics of the old 357 loadings?

Apocryphal tales tell of the original manly-man, hairy-chested .357 Magnum ammo available when Smith introduced the cartridge, and the degradation of the cartridge once Smith started getting an uncomfortable number of warranty repair requests.

SAAMI degraded .357 Mag once in the 90s, so such shenanigans are not completely unheard of.

 

[Mr. Mosin]

What bullet weight and what barrel length? Bullet speed without those details are meaningless.

I don't know. I'm not the guy to be asking. I do know that SAAMI screwed with handgun ammunition across the board in the early 70's

 

[mcb]

Apocryphal tales tell of the original manly-man, hairy-chested .357 Magnum ammo available when Smith introduced the cartridge, and the degradation of the cartridge once Smith started getting an uncomfortable number of warranty repair requests.

SAAMI degraded .357 Mag once in the 90s, so such shenanigans are not completely unheard of.

This is sort of a pet peeve of mine so I get a bit fired up about it, so please don't take this too personally. SAAMI most certainly did not change the pressure of 357 Mag or any other cartridge. I have copies of SAAMI specs going back into the early 70's and 357 Magnum has always had a Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 45,000 CUP or 35,000 PSI (Transducer). The liability of changing an accepted cartridge's MAP up or down is too great, there is no safe direction you can change it once established. Once a cartridge is accepted it takes a very extreme set of circumstance to change any of its specification.

IIRC In the 90's SAAMI changed some of the statistical calculations for some of the specification around the MAP but the MAP has never changed since the cartridges inception. Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM), Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) and a few other statically calculations changed.

I don't know. I'm not the guy to be asking. I do know that SAAMI screwed with handgun ammunition across the board in the early 70's

Again no they did not. In the 1970's SAAMI added the piezo transducer method of measuring pressure to the long accepted LUP/CUP method. This new transducer method necessitate new pressure specifications for the new method. IE MAP for 357 Magnum with CUP is 45,000 CUP and for the new Transducer method is 35,000 PSI. These are the same peak pressure for this cartridge. So in the 1970's all cartridges got an additional pressure specification for the new transducer pressure measurement method. Both specifications are published in the current specifications.

There is no conversion between the two methods that is valid across all cartridges. Within one particular cartridge they do scale with each other. ie A cartridge that produces 90% of its MAP using CUP method will result in 90% of MAP using a transducer method.

 

[WrongHanded]

I haven't tried the ammo in question. But I've had some other BB loads in the past. They are powerful for sure, I just never ran any over a chronograph. It's too expensive for me to do that. Honestly it's almost too expensive for me to want to buy, considering that I like to test for accuracy and point of impact before I carry.

 

[roscoe]

Buffalo Bore's 125 grain .357 ammo gets close to 7.67x39 levels out of a rifle. Pretty amazing.

 

[dickydalton]

I have some Underwood Ammo 125 grain Speer bonded hollow points that they claim 1700 FPS on.

 

[murf]

ref: speer reloading manual number 11 first printing august 1987

"these maximum loads are slightly under the 46,000 cup working pressure of this cartridge."

test gun: ruger security six w/6" barrel

125 gn. speer soft point bullet - max velocity listed is 1602

140 gn speer hollow point bullet - max velocity listed is 1490

150 gn speer tmj bullet - max velocity listed is 1513

160 gn speer soft point - max velocity listed is 1348

in 1992 saami changed the "working pressure" of the 357 magnum cartridge to 45,000 cup (not a big reduction). in 2015 saami repeated the 45,000 cup working pressure for this cartridge and added the transducer working pressure of 35,000 psi (actually the transducer pressure was added in 1992 but i haven't found the 1992 saami data yet).

saami changes working pressure by changing the test ammo. the test ammo has been the same since 1992 for this cartridge.

luck,

murf

 

[MaxP]

I know the proprietor of Buffalo Bore really well and his velocities are not optimistic. He has numerous test guns and he actually reports what he gets out of them.

There is pretty good evidence that some cartridges (.44 Mag for example) have had their SAAMI maximum lowered over the years.

 

[reddog81]

At $33 for a box of 20, it’ll wear out your wallet pretty quick...

 

[mcb]

ref: speer reloading manual number 11 first printing august 1987

"these maximum loads are slightly under the 46,000 cup working pressure of this cartridge."

test gun: ruger security six w/6" barrel

125 gn. speer soft point bullet - max velocity listed is 1602

140 gn speer hollow point bullet - max velocity listed is 1490

150 gn speer tmj bullet - max velocity listed is 1513

160 gn speer soft point - max velocity listed is 1348

in 1992 saami changed the "working pressure" of the 357 magnum cartridge to 45,000 cup (not a big reduction). in 2015 saami repeated the 45,000 cup working pressure for this cartridge and added the transducer working pressure of 35,000 psi (actually the transducer pressure was added in 1992 but i haven't found the 1992 saami data yet).

saami changes working pressure by changing the test ammo. the test ammo has been the same since 1992 for this cartridge.

luck,

murf

A Speer manual is not a SAAMI publication. The 46,000 CUP is probably a typo or mistake reading/coping from a SAAMI manual. SAAMI MAP is 45,000 CUP for 357 Magnum, always has been. I have yet to have someone show me a SAAMI publication with a different number for 357 Mag for CUP or transducer, just a lot of unsupported internet speculation.

SAAMI added the transducer pressure method and specs in the 1970's Not many companies other than the big one's like Remington and Winchester were using it back then but the technology was developed in the 1960's and released to the industry in the 1970's.

SAAMI does not make the test ammo. A SAAMI member company makes it to SAAMI spec, using SAAMI prescribe methods for measuring pressure. It is then sold to others for use. So SAAMI could not have changed the test ammo only the specifications they are loaded to and I am arguing they have not done so.

The only change I have ever been able to find from one SAAMI publication to another is with 38 Special +P. In the first SAAMI publication that included 38 Special +P is was specified at 20,000 CUP and 18,500 PSI (trans). The next time the Pistol & Relvolver specs were revised it was published as 20,000 CUP and 20,000 PSI (trans). As best as I have been able to tease out of the few SAAMI people I have talked to it was simply a correction as more data was generated for the traducer method that showed the original transducer spec was in error. Remember when +P came out most of it's development was done with crusher test barrels since the traducer method was so new to the industry in the early 70's when +P was developed and there was limited transducer data generated before for the first publication of the new +P cartridge specs. That was the story I was given, so take this last paragraph with an appropriate grain of salt.

 

[labnoti]

Buffalo Bore is not a member of SAAMI and they're not restricted to SAAMI specifications. You also can load beyond SAAMI specification at your risk, but you should ask yourself what it will accomplish.

I say any fables and legends about "old" factory loadings are just that. We know they used Hercules (Alliant) 2400 in the early loads, and we know we have slower-burning powders that will safely give us higher velocities from any barrel length. Before you draw and conclusions comparing apples to oranges, get your chronograph out and see for yourself. That is the only way you will really believe what the different brand powders will really do in a real gun.

 

[murf]

The 46,000 CUP is probably a typo or mistake reading/coping from a SAAMI manual.

speer is a member of saami and i will believe their data over your speculation any time. show us your data, or saami manual, to refute the speer manual.

murf

 

[WestKentucky]

Sounds like my wrist hurting just reading those velocities................

Wrists? My ears are ringing.

 

[mcb]

speer is a member of saami and i will believe their data over your speculation any time. show us your data, or saami manual, to refute the speer manual.

murf

I unfortunately only have photos of 38/357 Mag data going back to 1993. I have talked to a company's representative to SAAMI about older data but never got a copy from him. But from talking to him you can't change a specification once established, corrections sure, but changing the spec would cause issues.

So I would ask those that think SAAMI has changed the specification for a cartridge how would an organization like SAAMI change the pressure of a cartridge and not cause a liability problems for it members? You cannot safely change the operation pressure of a cartridge up or down and not cause a liability problem for either the ammunition manufacture or the firearms manufacture, both of which are you supporting memebers. If you increase the max average pressure then new ammo could damage old guns. If you move the maximum average pressure down than old ammo and old load data could damage guns made/designed to the new lower spec. The liability of a change is simply to great to allow a change in either direction. To that end I have never seen SAAMI data that would make me think otherwise.

 

[murf]

If you move the maximum average pressure down than old ammo and old load data could damage guns made/designed to the new lower spec.

that is why saami moved most all the pistol map down back in 1992, because the higher pressures were damaging the newer guns (think model 19 cracked forcing cones here). i will try and get you the ansi/saami data from 1992, but i have it in .pdf and will have to email it to you (let me know if you want it and i will go find it).

i have been looking in my downloaded speer6 manual. it shows load data from a pressure barrel which includes pressures for each load. i can email that file to you also.

there is an article in the speer6 manual by jack o'connor titled "pressures and the handloader" in which he describes the american ammunition industry, " ... it is the policy of the american ammunition industry to keep mum on the subject [pressure]." apparently, there was not much "pressure" regulation back in the 30's, 40's and 50's.

i don't want to quibble about 1,000 pounds of pressure, no matter how measured. the indication is that, prior to the early 90's, pressure limits were not very well regulated. that changed around 1992 and pressure data, for both rifle and handgun, is ultra-reliable, imo. use those older reloading manuals and/or word-of-mouth data at your own risk.

murf

 

[mcb]

that is why saami moved most all the pistol map down back in 1992, because the higher pressures were damaging the newer guns (think model 19 cracked forcing cones here). i will try and get you the ansi/saami data from 1992, but i have it in .pdf and will have to email it to you (let me know if you want it and i will go find it).

i have been looking in my downloaded speer6 manual. it shows load data from a pressure barrel which includes pressures for each load. i can email that file to you also.

there is an article in the speer6 manual by jack o'connor titled "pressures and the handloader" in which he describes the american ammunition industry, " ... it is the policy of the american ammunition industry to keep mum on the subject [pressure]." apparently, there was not much "pressure" regulation back in the 30's, 40's and 50's.

i don't want to quibble about 1,000 pounds of pressure, no matter how measured. the indication is that, prior to the early 90's, pressure limits were not very well regulated. that changed around 1992 and pressure data, for both rifle and handgun, is ultra-reliable, imo. use those older reloading manuals and/or word-of-mouth data at your own risk.

murf

I can believe that. I also think that technology, manufacturing QC, and similar advances both in the ability to measure and the desire by manufactures to have more definitive control over their manufacturing process might explain why SAAMI's influence became stronger starting in the 80's/90's. Before that time the manufactures did not take the SAAMI specification as seriously for a variety of reasons. SAAMI has only been around since the 1930's and it was not terrible influential at its inception. SAAMI has always been a voluntary group with no hard enforcement.

 

[Sneakshot92]

Sounds like my wrist hurting just reading those velocities................

That is why have this heavyweight.

 

[Eddietruett]

If you reload, reaching the velocities advertised by Buffalo Bore can be easily reached especially with lead or coated lead. Jacketed bullets do have a little more friction, so the same charge would run a little slower. I've loaded some Missouri 185 gr Coated lead and got close to their advertised velocities with a N frame S&W but did show some pressure warning signs like flattened primers etc. A quality N frame or a Ruger Single Action will do this with no problem, but constant shooting will cause premature wear and possible damage down the road according to my gunsmith. Supposedly Buffalo Bore uses some special blended powders that will give higher velocities than we normally can achieve with off the shelf powder but you will never convince me that guns wont suffer with long term use. I see no need. If you can't get velocity desired "safely" with a .357 Magnum, then step up to a .41 or .44 Magnum. Or get a rifle.
I load 185gr Coated lead for hog hunting and get around 1350fps out of a 8 3/8" Model 686 and a Model 27 with no signs of excess pressure. That's plenty for a hog at reasonable distance, but even so, I limit my shooting of these loads. Just a few here and there to make sure my red dot is till sighted in.