Has the military rifle reached its apex in development?

[Tony Williams]

If body armor is a big concern nobody would be talking about a .45 caliber pistol like the JCP.

The renewed interest in the .45 seems to have been driven by the specific conditions in Iraq, where (so far) very few of the insurgents have been wearing body armour. I have to say that I am dubious about basing future procurement decisions on one conflict, when the next one may turn out to be entirely different - you never know what's going to turn and bite you.

We in the UK got a sharp lesson in that in 1982, when a navy optimised for mid-Atlantic anti-submarine warfare suddenly found itself in a battle to regain the Falklands. Fortunately it was good enough, but the short-range air defences of the ships were shown to be glaringly inadequate, and the plans to drop medium-calibre guns from future ships were hastily abandoned. General-purpose capability is important....

I do agree with you over the disadvantages of body armour, especially in hot environments. Every step-up in the performance of the armour means extra weight and bulk. However, the problems do seem to be being addressed, with lighter armour and even built-in cooling systems being developed in the USA, so it seems that the armour is likely to improve at a faster rate than the weapons over the next few years. Of course, the USA can be expected to maintain a technological edge over insurgent troops for the foreseeable future, but that doesn't mean that they won't face problems.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion forum

 

[Leonovicz]

Supplementing Tony Williams's post...

Defense Review article on BMT (blended-metal technology) ammunition.
Blackwater shootout with BMT.
ArmyTimes article detailing (unpleasant) terminal ballistics and congressional debate on BMT ammo use in the military.

Link to Defense Review's BMT test.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

It's hard to say. But I doubt we'll be switching to phasers ala Star Trek any time soon.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

DocGKR is well known in the field of terminal ballistics. In addition to the link at Tactical Forums explaining some of the major issues with so-called blended metal ammunition, here is some more reading:

http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/3021025832/r/3021025832#3021025832
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/517000286/r/429000496#429000496
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/823107126/r/234102308#234102308

 

[mndfusion]

Bullets filled with toxic lethal shelfish toxin is an improment, right? Well Kennedy might think otherwise?

1.caseless ammo,
2.metals that have memory so they nvr get out of whack. No matter how hard you try to pry that crate open with your rifle!
3.metal storm technology
4. Lazer guns.

 

[Wes Janson]

I'd really, really like to know the real truth about that BMT stuff. And the only one I believe is my own eyes.

 

[Cosmoline]

I have read that some insurgents in Iraq have been discovered to be wearing body armour.

Where? I've never seen any confirmation of that. They might put on some old cold war era flak jackets to look studly, but of course that ain't body armor. The terrorists have money, but they spend it on explosives to blow their boys up, not to protect them from small arms fire.

Why shouldn't they? The stuff is commercially available and terrorists usually have access to funds.

Let's be realistic here. *I* can't even afford the kind of body armor we're talking about. And the insurgents go fast and light.

I'm sure that lots of people have been noting the substantial benefits to US forces in Iraq, in terms of lives saved, so it isn't going to go away and its use can only spread.

What's needed more in Iraq are helmets and armor for protection against high explosive shrapnel and shock waves. Moreover, while our guys will continue to wear body armor our enemies will continue to go without it. Trying to devise expensive new ammunition to defeat ceramic plates is an absurd waste of money. AP ammo isn't only pointless in the sand box, it costs lives. An AP .223 loses whatever benefit it might have had from that famous explosive fragmentation. It just punches little .22" holes. This was noted in Somalia long before the current conflict.

What makes you say that AP ammo for small arms is 'antiquated'? The modern tungsten-cored bullets currently in US service in 5.56mm and 7.62mm calibres can penetrate impressive thicknesses of armour.

It's designed to fight the LAST WAR. Indeed, not even that. The war BEFORE the last war. The war that never happened, where our guys fought millions of highly armored Red Army Men. Stupid and antiquated.

I wouldn't hold your breath too long waiting for the insurgents to start wearing body armor.

I have to say that I am dubious about basing future procurement decisions on one conflict

Avoiding AP ammo in favor of something more meaty is not based on one conflict. It's based on every single conflict we've been involved in from Vietnam to the Gulf War to Somalia to the Iraq War. It amazes me how many people *STILL* seem fixated on developing something that can shoot through high tech armor. How many people have to detonate themselves before you guys realize that OUR ENEMY PLACES NO VALUE ON ANY HUMAN LIFE--least of all the lives of their own terrorists. That's not going to change. Like OBL says, Muslims LIVE TO DIE. You don't mire yourself down with heavy armor when you have that attitude.

 

[otomik]

Stan Bulmer is a charlitan and LeMas Blended Metal is snakeoil, there have been a few threads on this and you're better off searching and informing yourself than lowering the level of discussion here.

Dependence on Tungsten should be avoided because the major resources are in China, this has been true for a long time and in Tank munitions and armor this is one of the reasons Depleted Uranium is favored. If .45ACP's lack of penetration is a problem there are armor piercing bullet types, some that even work well with a large caliber such as Abraham Flatau's Ring Airfoil type. SS109 should be fine until a new cartridge is developed, something that has a better ballistic co-efficient to replace the .308 too, I think something like 6mm Optimum would do even better against body armor. I believe shaped charge 25mm and 40mm exist but I don't think it's possible on a very small scale like a rifle bullet AFAIK.