Hatfields & McCoys History Channel Lots of smoke

[The Red Hot Rider]

That is very generous of you, Red Hot Rider, an offer I will take you up on. In the meantime, I want to educate myself about he feud. I'm aware of the references in your most excellent treatise on the feud; but if you had to pick just one or two---not necessarily scholarly works, yet informed---which would they be?

And as a general interest item for all the membership: the character Sid Hatfield is worth reading up on, a genuine, dyed-in-the-wool, 2-gun toting lawman who was a central figure in the Matewan (pronounced MATE-wan, I believe) Massacre.

Wow, Sleazy. Believe it or not, that's actually a tall order.

The actual details and facts of the feud are easy to gather from something as accessible as "wikipedia". I think we know all we are ever going to know about the actual events of the feud. To me, the fascination is the attempt to understand the mindset of the combatants.

Otis Rice's book about the feud is easy to find. There is one book, though, that I would particularly recommend. It is entitled: "Days of Darkness; The Feuds of Eastern Kentucky" by John Ed Pearce. It covers the Hatfield-McCoy Feud, but it also covers TONS of other Eastern Kentucky feuds, a few of which make the Hatfield-McCoy feud seem small potatoes in comparison when you consier the sheer amount of combatants killed. Also, it's hard to find, but if you could find the book "Squirrel Hunting Sam McCoy", it would be well worth the read, although it can be hard to read because it is from the handwritten memoirs of one of the McCoy participants in the feud. VERY worthwhile read.

The Hatfield-McCoy feud got more press because it caused a riffe between Kentucky and West Virgina because the combatants lived on either side of The Tug River, which divides the two states. The newspapers picked it up from there and a legend was born. There were far bloodier feuds in Appalachia, not to downplay the H-M feud, though.

If you read my dissertation, you know I believe it all boiled down to a southern "culture of honor". That same culture still pervades today, not only in Appalachia, but wherever there is property or resources to be had and disputed and there are people who have to maintain "face" in order to keep what they have.

I'm rambling on and on here. It's a subject near and dear to my heart. Let me now if I can be of any further assistance to you, OK?

 

[bikerdoc]

I alos am doing a lot of reading on the subject and also the Blair mountain battle as family oral history says my great uncle was killed their.

Some where I read something about Sid Hatfield that said he would fight at the drop of a hat and sometimes you didnt need a hat.

As an aside. Here is a notable quote from Eric Haney author of Inside Delta Force
on his mountain folk heritage "We are easily offended and prone to violence when offended. When the only thing you own is your sense of honor, you tend to protect it at all costs."

 

[The Red Hot Rider]

I think that quote is dead on the mark, biker.

 

[Art Eatman]

Quite a few sociologists have commented on the prevalence of the concept of honor in the southern states.

I'm rusty on the details, but IIRC, it ties back to the ancestry and the mores of Elizabethan times.

 

[The Red Hot Rider]

Well, actually, well before that, Art. It came out of agriculturalism. When people were hunter-gatherers, land and resources weren't fought for as much because, if you were muscled out of your territory, you could always hunt and gather more somewhere else.

BUT, if you have spent time and effort farming and raising livestock, to have them taken from you is likely to have much more deadly consequences for you. If someone steals your harvest or meat animals, then you are screwed royally come wintertime. So, you had better make sure no one steals from you or belittles you, which would make you seem an easy "mark" for others who wanted to take advantage of you or steal from you. In other words, think of Sean Connery's "Chicago way" speech to Costner(Ness) in "The Untouchables".

I guess the best way to say it would be that retaliation for slighted honor means you have demonstrated to the offender and to any others who would care to learn the lesson that you are not a person to be trifled with and there will certainly be repercussions for messing with you.

Niccolo Machiavelli outlines this much better than I can in a book called "The Prince". It was his treatise on ruling government and the use of show of force and other things every young dictator wanted to know but was afraid to ask.

Sorry if I get to rambling in these posts...

 

[bikerdoc]

I guess the best way to say it would be that retaliation for slighted honor means you have demonstrated to the offender and to any others who would care to learn the lesson that you are not a person to be trifled with and there will certainly be repercussions for messing with you.

To complicate matters in my family tree, my ancestors were the Italian immigrants to the mines, who not only accepted the local code, but brought with them the omerta, honorata, vendetta thing (silence, honor, revenge)

I still have grandads shotgun and pistol.

 

[walk soft]

Agreeed RHR.Very well put.

 

[The Red Hot Rider]

To complicate matters in my family tree, my ancestors were the Italian immigrants to the mines, who not only accepted the local code, but brought with them the omerta, honorata, vendetta thing (silence, honor, revenge)

I still have grandads shotgun and pistol.

Biker,

If you watch the movie "Matewan", you will see depictions of your Italian ancestors in Appalachia. They were brought here as "scabs" (no offense meant by that word).

I think they frequently did not know they were hired as scabs until they arrived and stepped off of the train. By that time, they had no way home and they were in debt to the company already for the train ride in. If they tried to go back to where they came from, they would have been arrested for theft by the local law enforcement, who were usually in the pockets of the coal company.

Once they found out the true score, the Italians usually joined with the union. At least that's what they did in the movie...

Now, to keep this thread 2a so we don't get closed by an administrator, let's say it's easy to see how 2a was beneficial to the poor coal miners who wanted to strike for better conditions, pay, etc. They were frequently harrassed by coal operators, even killed. Thanks to the 2a, they were able to defend themselves with the firearms the 2a provided to them.

I wonder how unionization went in other countries where there was no 2a.

 

[4v50 Gary]

No union talks please. Lets stay out of politics. Turning to honor, Clayton Cramer addresses it in his book on early weapon laws in the South. He goes heavily into honor and feuding.

 

[SleazyRider]

"All men who have honor are kings; but not all kings have honor." Could it be that this concept of honor is central to gang violence? And if so, would it be advantageous for us to understand it as armed citizens?

 

[bikerdoc]

I think they frequently did not know they were hired as scabs until they arrived and stepped off of the train. By that time, they had no way home and they were in debt to the company already for the train ride in. If they tried to go back to where they came from, they would have been arrested for theft by the local law enforcement, who were usually in the pockets of the coal company.

Once they found out the true score, the Italians usually joined with the union. At least that's what they did in the movie...

No offence taken as it was Absolutely true.

The mine owners had recruiters in NY who lied. Bold outright lied. They dangled the American dream and delivered exploitation.

I had a great uncle killed at the Blair mountain battle. Another who died of Black Lung.


As you said earlier,

To me, the fascination is the attempt to understand the mindset of the combatants.

Thats key central issue for me also.

From my perspective the native born and the immigrants were similar in character, mindset, and values. I am 63 and can remember family conversations going back 3 generations. Honor, dignity, and family were central themes

The quest for understanding is fascinating, They were different. The why and the how drives me. It is who we are. Who I am. and the world could use a whole bunch more of us with similar values.

Please call me Doc, my biker days are over

 

[The Red Hot Rider]

You got it, doc. The union talk was not intended to be political. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[Dr.Rob]

"Thunder in the Mountains"

http://www.amazon.com/Thunder-In-Mountains-Virginia-1920-21/dp/0822954265

Is a pretty good book on the 'Matewan Massacre' andthe events leading up to it. You'll find the origin of the word redneck explained there and the first example of 'interdiction' bombing in the USA. Sid Hatfield's two gun rig was a pair of Colt New Service revolvers (some sources say they were army models). That's one of the reasons I picked a New Service.

Fascinating stuff.

As a kid driving up to my great granny's house in Taylorville we'd be told to 'hush up' when driving past the Hatfield family plot, as "Devil Anse" was watching.

http://www.ghat.com/hatfwh01.htm

Now granted this was just a folk tale told to shush up rowdy kids in the car but you could see 'Anse' from the road when I was a kid.

Taylorville (a wide spot in the road with a post office general store bait shop even in the 40's) is over the hill from Matewan (a road narrow and full of coal trucks to this day) and it turns out I am related to the Hatfields by marriage. Half the people in the area around Matewan are related by blood or marriage to a Hatfield or McCoy. These are my roots and I am fascinated by the area and its rich history.

My scanner isn't working but I'll try to post a pic of "Anse" as he appears in the last 10 years or so.

(Granted this is a photo of a photo)

 

[SleazyRider]

Thanks for the recommendation, Dr. Rob, I just ordered a copy. That was a great anecote, and I look forward to checking it out this fall.

I don't understand how this event has escaped "mainstream" history, as it is not only compelling, but critically important to understanding the American experience.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Dr Rob. Is that image a cemetery marker or a statute of Devil Anse?

 

[bikerdoc]

That is his tomestone.
Scroll down the link for a better pic

http://www.ghat.com/hatfwh01.htm

 

[bikerdoc]

Just saw the first commercial for the special. Wow, big time cast and Kostner had a lever action in a short scene. Looks good, hope it is accurate!

 

[SleazyRider]

I was in the Big Apple last week and saw it advertised on one of those large LED signs a block or two from Times Square. It was strange to see a black powder revolver "brandished" in NYC!

 

[bikerdoc]

HHHHMMMM, just read where it was filmed in Romania.

Let's see if they get it right.

 

[junkman_01]

bikerdoc is absolutely correct. Here is the proof...

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1985443/locations

 

[The Red Hot Rider]

So far, it's crap.

I intend to see this thing through and watch all 3 episodes. HOWEVER, so far, it's total crap and far from the truth. LOTS of artistic license taken to this point. I kind of figured that would be the case.

 

[towboat_er]

Seems their making one side good, and one bad.

 

[brushhippie]

Total crap! bill paxton is just the WORST....hows that go " Ive seen better acting in a cambodian whore house"

 

[bikerdoc]

So far, it's crap.

I agree. Very disappointing.

 

[junkman_01]

I liked it so far.