Have some Trapdoor questions for the experts...

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Alexitt

Alexitt

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I've been shooting cap-n-ball guns for quite some time and recently acquired an 1884 Springfield, Ser# gives a mfg. date of July/Sept 1888... What little information I've been able to find out on the web doesn't match mine up with any of the models I've been able to find though... It has all the dings and dents you might expect from a 140+ year old rifle and doesn't appear to have been "Customized" in the last 100 years or so but it also doesn't fit the known models... It's the size of a carbine with a 45" overall length, 25.5" barrel, 13.5-14"LOP, 23.5" cleaning rod (which seems short to me), and only 8" between the bands... The barrel does appear that it may have been re-sleeved at some point but I don't know enough to tell... Overall it seems nice and tight, no slop in the action or trigger and everything seems to work the way it should... Any help identifying this old girl would be much appreciated... Also have a couple of other questions 1) Would it be safe to shoot off the shelf 45-70 Gov ammunition or would the pressures be too much??? 2) If not, Where can safe ammo be picked up and what would be the best choices??? I shoot a lot of BP but I'm not currently set up (though I'm looking into it) to reload cartridges though I do cast my own bullets... Thanks for any advice... 1884-001.jpg 1884-004.jpg 1884-006.jpg 1884-007.jpg 1884-009.jpg 1884-015.jpg 1884-018.jpg 1884-019.jpg 1884-021.jpg 1884-022.jpg
 
Not sure that's a sleeve in the barrel, looks like a target crown. Lee makes a hand press that takes regular sized dies, you could get set up relatively cheap to reload for it. You will hooked on shooting it, nothing beats a range session lobbing bowling balls at a target 500 yards out.
 
The crown was cut by a shooter/owner and is not from Springfield. The 25.5” barrel also indicates a cutdown barrel. Well done but not original.

Here is my go to site for all things trapdoor.

https://www.trapdoorcollector.com/

Enjoy that rifle. It will shoot best with black powder and lead but other combinations can be used. These may have oversized bores and throats. Measuring the three groove bore is a pain. Good results can be gotten by loading bullets that fit the throat.

Can you read the date on the breechblock? I want to say it is 1884 but that does not match up with the rear sight.

So, original but not as issued. It will make a good hunting piece.

Kevin
 
Alexitt said:
Also have a couple of other questions 1) Would it be safe to shoot off the shelf 45-70 Gov ammunition or would the pressures be too much???
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I wouldn't. There is some "+P" type of 45-70 out there and other ammo loaded for the level guns. Best path is reload and keep it sane.

Alexitt said:
2) If not, Where can safe ammo be picked up and what would be the best choices??? I shoot a lot of BP but I'm not currently set up (though I'm looking into it) to reload cartridges though I do cast my own bullets... Thanks for any advice...
Click to expand...

IF you MUST shoot "factory", make sure it's black powder cartridges. They are out there but they ain't cheap. A box or two of that stuff and you will absolutely get into rolling your own. There are alternatives to a full on reloading set up. The buffalo hunters did it in camp and I'm pretty sure they didn't use RCBS or Dillon presses. Here's a couple products from Lee that mimics what the ODGs did.

https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-presses/classic-lee-loader/4570-govt-lee-loader-

https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-presses/lee-breech-lock-hand-press-only


Alexitt said:
though I do cast my own bullets... Thanks for any advice...
Click to expand...

+1 on shooting cast. The metallurgy of the barrel isn't up to modern standards with regards to shooting jacketed. Stay with cast and you'll never have a problem.
 
Jackrabbit1957 said:
Not sure that's a sleeve in the barrel, looks like a target crown. Lee makes a hand press that takes regular sized dies, you could get set up relatively cheap to reload for it. You will hooked on shooting it, nothing beats a range session lobbing bowling balls at a target 500 yards out.
Click to expand...

I've been looking at dies and the setup for handloading but like so many things availability is the issue these days... and I'm not sure what you mean by "target crown" (new term for me)

StrawHat said:
The crown was cut by a shooter/owner and is not from Springfield. The 25.5” barrel also indicates a cutdown barrel. Well done but not original.

Here is my go to site for all things trapdoor.

https://www.trapdoorcollector.com/

Enjoy that rifle. It will shoot best with black powder and lead but other combinations can be used. These may have oversized bores and throats. Measuring the three groove bore is a pain. Good results can be gotten by loading bullets that fit the throat.

Can you read the date on the breechblock? I want to say it is 1884 but that does not match up with the rear sight.

So, original but not as issued. It will make a good hunting piece.

Kevin
Click to expand...

Ah yes, Trapdoorcollector.com was the source of what little I've been able to find out... and yes the breechlock date is 1884 but you have to get the light just right to see it and my picture couldn't quite get the job done... I set one of my .44 Kerr revolver conicals in the end just to make sure it was a 45 and the lube rings sit neatly inside the barrel...
Any ideas what I can do for ammo until I can set myself up with reloading gear??? I'm a bit hesitant about trying modern 45-70 gov and haven't found a source yet for BP loads...

Thanks

44kerr01.jpg 44kerr02.jpg
 
dave951 said:
I wouldn't. There is some "+P" type of 45-70 out there and other ammo loaded for the level guns. Best path is reload and keep it sane.



IF you MUST shoot "factory", make sure it's black powder cartridges. They are out there but they ain't cheap. A box or two of that stuff and you will absolutely get into rolling your own. There are alternatives to a full on reloading set up. The buffalo hunters did it in camp and I'm pretty sure they didn't use RCBS or Dillon presses. Here's a couple products from Lee that mimics what the ODGs did.

https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-presses/classic-lee-loader/4570-govt-lee-loader-

https://www.titanreloading.com/lee-presses/lee-breech-lock-hand-press-only




+1 on shooting cast. The metallurgy of the barrel isn't up to modern standards with regards to shooting jacketed. Stay with cast and you'll never have a problem.
Click to expand...

I thank you Sir, I didn't want to try the modern loads unless it was the only option available and once I can get my paws on the gear I have no problem loading one at a time... I make a lot of paper cartridges for the "51's" and "58"
Any ideas on a good source for the factory BP loads???
 
Alexitt said:
I thank you Sir, I didn't want to try the modern loads unless it was the only option available and once I can get my paws on the gear I have no problem loading one at a time... I make a lot of paper cartridges for the "51's" and "58"
Any ideas on a good source for the factory BP loads???
Click to expand...

I think Buffalo sells loaded BP ammo. It ain't cheap.
 
Ixnay on modern .45/70 ammo. Roll your own using either self cast or commercially available lead bullets and black powder, either 2f or 3f. Buffalo Arms does carry it but I believe they are out of stock. You won't injure yourself or the gun with BP cartridges.
 
I think it helps, I almost always crown my barrels like that, it insures the gasses behind the bullet exit the barrel evenly and consistently. When the crown is damaged gasses vent on the damaged area tipping the base of the bullet slightly and accuracy goes away. That recessed part helps protect the area of the crown from damage. Hope this helps clear it up.
 
Alexitt said:
Why would they go to the extra effort to do that though? How does it help anything? Just curious as to the purpose...
Click to expand...

Yes, it does help with accuracy assuming that everything else is in place. But if you can't hit a barn from inside the hayloft, all bets are off :D
 
Don't shoot smokeless in it. Looks like it was well rusted at one time. (not that surface rust would make it weaker. just that...where else was it rusted?) Looks like someone really loved the rifle at one time, probably shot a lot of deer, elk, bear, pigs, whatever with it. Then passed away and the rifle wound up in a basement or something, spent many years in neglect. Then one day it was sold, cleaned up, and sold again. And again, until you found it. I kind of like the looks of it.

By the way, the carbine barrel is 22", so someone wanted a shorter rifle than the rifle, but longer than the carbine. The "short rifle" the Army never had! I bet someone really loved that gun, at one time.
 
Jackrabbit1957 said:
I think it helps, I almost always crown my barrels like that, it insures the gasses behind the bullet exit the barrel evenly and consistently. When the crown is damaged gasses vent on the damaged area tipping the base of the bullet slightly and accuracy goes away. That recessed part helps protect the area of the crown from damage. Hope this helps clear it up.
Click to expand...

Ah, that does make perfect sense... Thanks!


Ugly Sauce said:
Don't shoot smokeless in it. Looks like it was well rusted at one time. (not that surface rust would make it weaker. just that...where else was it rusted?) Looks like someone really loved the rifle at one time, probably shot a lot of deer, elk, bear, pigs, whatever with it. Then passed away and the rifle wound up in a basement or something, spent many years in neglect. Then one day it was sold, cleaned up, and sold again. And again, until you found it. I kind of like the looks of it.

By the way, the carbine barrel is 22", so someone wanted a shorter rifle than the rifle, but longer than the carbine. The "short rifle" the Army never had! I bet someone really loved that gun, at one time.
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I like the way it feels and looks too, the inner parts are pit-free and inside the barrel shows no pitting either so I think I made a pretty good score... Now I just need to find Dies and a hand press in stock so I can get to work making some BP rounds... Makes me think the cleaning rod might be off a carbine since it's 23 1/2" and drops out of sight in the barrel...
 
DSC01596.JPG Naw...carbines didn't have ram/cleaning rods. I bet it doesn't have threads on the end of the rod either. I can see where it would rattle around and catch on things if it was full length. Perhaps it's just for dropping down the barrel and popping a case out of the breech should one get stuck. Yes, I'm grasping at straws here. Just for looks? Cooking fish or grouse, or a wabbit over the fire? I bet that rifle really has a story.

If it looks good on the inside, that pitting just adds charactor. It should shoot great, the rifling on those was shallow to begin with, so some make the mistake that the bore is worn out. I can understand why someone got rid of the Buffington sights. I tried them for a while, then took the dang things off and put on the regular, earlier rifle sights, like yours have. My rifle was made in 1884, my carbine in 1876.
 
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Ugly Sauce said:
View attachment 1011680 Naw...carbines didn't have ram/cleaning rods. I bet it doesn't have threads on the end of the rod either. I can see where it would rattle around and catch on things if it was full length. Perhaps it's just for dropping down the barrel and popping a case out of the breech should one get stuck. Yes, I'm grasping at straws here. Just for looks? Cooking fish or grouse, or a wabbit over the fire? I bet that rifle really has a story.

If it looks good on the inside, that pitting just adds charactor. It should shoot great, the rifling on those was shallow to begin with, so some make the mistake that the bore is worn out. I can understand why someone got rid of the Buffington sights. I tried them for a while, then took the dang things off and put on the regular, earlier rifle sights, like yours have. My rifle was made in 1884, my carbine in 1876.
Click to expand...

I just looked and sure enough, no threads so I think you may be onto something with the dropping down the barrel idea for stuck cartridge... I'll have to keep that in mind once I get my mitts on some cartridges to try it with... If only these old guns could talk...
 
Opinions:

OP's rifle looks like a parts gun to me. 1884 action but short barrel and odd stock with rifle nose cap and front band and earlier sight.

That recessed crown is a liability on a BPCR, just another nook and cranny to clean. My modern Browning is like that and I cuss it every time I shoot it. My real Winchester has a dead flat muzzle, easy to wipe and easy to see a lube star which indicates your bullets are well greased.

It boggles my mind to see posts warning against shooting smokeless in a trapdoor, yet other threads endorsing shooting Damascus barreled shotguns. I have seen both done and I would sure rather be behind the trapdoor.
BUT I would not put 28000 CUP SAMMI maximum ammo in a trapdoor. Lyman has arsenal equivalent loads well under 15000 CUP. Speer said the most they could get out of black was 21000 psi.
Heck, even the Great Overloaders at Buffalo Bore will sell you .45-70 under 21000 psi.

Getting into trapdoor shooting on a shoestring, your greatest problem is bullets. Modern .45 rifles, from .45-60 to .458 Lott have pretty well standardized on .458" groove diameter. You are unlikely to find a trapdoor that small. Hard cast .458" bullets are the short route to poor accuracy and barrel leading. Most trapdoors are in the .462" range and need either a bullet that large or a soft one booted by black powder light off to slug up and obturate. The Army didn't use a hollow base bullet because they liked making them.

Links to info
There is a book devoted to loading for the Trapdoor Springfield.
https://the4570book.com

If you read the thread here, you will see that there are other ways to treat the .45-70. Some of them would work in a Trapdoor, some of them wouldn't.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/j-s-pat-wolf.856070/#post-11229963
 
The pressure curves of different powders are....wait for it...."different". 21000psi produced by smokeless is not the same as 21000psi produced by black powder. Remember, powder does not detonate, it burns. At different rates. Peak pressure might "happen" close to the breech, or further down the barrel. If powder just detonated at the breech, then yes, 15000 or 21000 would be the same for both black or smokeless.

The Lee 405 grain bullet mold which casts a replica of the Trapdoor bullet is not expensive, and mine casts out at .460". Refer to the pic of my carbine above. I'd say it shoots "okay" at 100 yards.

I'm pretty sure that many of us on this forum who have the LEE mold would cast you some bullets, out of pure lead, for a far better price than what you could buy them from a bullet maker, if you don't want to get the mold and cast your own. As mentioned, most bullets on the market will be .458" and hard lead. Nope, not a good combination.

Disclaimer: I do not suggest shooting damascus shotguns, although I would. I do warn against smokeless in a Trapdoor, which I would not. I could be wrong. :) !! :)
 
The Army was developing smokeless loads for the Springfield Single Shot Rifle but that program was interrupted by the Spanish American War. They also used the SSR action as a test bed to determine which barrel steel and rifling twist would be used on the Krag magazine rifle. I believe three actions were used and over 100 barrels tested. No problems with the actions using smokeless powder in those tests.

The “myth” of the weak trapdoors is a result of the first couple of Models, the 1865, 1866 and some of the 1868s. These were built by converting muzzleloading muskets. By the time the Model 1873 Springfield came to be, it was constructed of entirely new parts, purpose built for the rifle. Breeches, barrels, locks etc. we’re all built for the rifles. Nothing was recycled from the previous war.

Kevin
 
Good argument. (as is Watson's post) I would add that the Trapdoor was a black powder rifle from the beginning. And that the Army probably was not as concerned about a rifle blowing up (or being damaged) now and then, as you and I would be after purchasing a nice old Springfield with hard earned money.

I would argue that a muzzle loader, (or even most muzzle loaders) such as the 1861 Springfield, has a stronger breech than a Trapdoor. Why don't we use smokeless in our muzzle loaders, as long as we target the original breech pressures? We've all seen that video where the two guys worked very hard to blow up a muzzle loader with smokeless, after filling the whole barrel with black, and ramming down a couple or more slugs. To blow the breech at last, it took an insane amount of fast burning smokeless. However, one would get much more grief over doing that, using smokeless in a muzzle loader, than using smokeless in a black powder breech loader. They are both black powder firearms.

I would not do it, but I would postulate that using smokeless in a muzzle loader is every bit as safe as using it in a Trapdoor. But to be "prudent" I don't think many of us would suggest that, or do it. Why not load the TC Hawken, the Plains Rifle, or any of the replica muskets with Trail Boss, or any of the other powders used these days in the Trapdoor, or "Trapdoor loads"? Just target the "normal" or black powder breech pressures for those guns. ???

I guess I'm just saying, if you wouldn't do it in a muzzle loader, why is it okay in a Trapdoor, in spite of some very good arguments? We could make those same arguments about using smokeless in a front-stuffer.

And, I'll go back to pressure again. Smokeless and black have very different characteristics, and different types of smokeless are very different from each other. Pressure curves. Think: pressure curves. All pressure is not the same. !!! They are very different. Load your .338 Winchester Magnum to 53,000psi with Unique or Blue Dot, and see what you get. You can't just target the PSI or CUP. The pressure curve is important. Powder burns, it does not dentinate. And air space. Pretty hard to fill a .45-70 case all the way up with smokeless. Low density loads can sometimes do "funny", unexplainable things. (like detonation) Air space is not good in muzzle loaders, or big straight cartridge cases.

Bottom line, it's not "prudent" to use smokeless in a Trapdoor or muzzle loader, even though you can get away with it. It is a black powder rifle. A brass case does not make an action stronger. When most breech loaders fail, it's usually the cartridge case that gives up.

So I sez, don't do it.
 
If you can not sanely use smokeless powder, black powder is fine. I like and use black powder in my 50-70s and my revolvers. I like and use smokeless powders in some of my rifles and some of my revolvers. It is as simple as matching the purpose and the need with the powder.

The British have used black powder equivalent loads for a couple of centuries.

Kevin
 
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