Have we become like Ancient Rome?

[Thin Black Line]

"We had been told, on leaving our native soil, that we were going to defend the sacred rights conferred on us by so many of our citizens settled overseas, so many years of our presence, so many benefits brought by us to populations in need of our assistance and our civilization.

We were able to verify that all this was true, and, because it was true, we did not hesitate to shed our quota of blood, to sacrifice our youth and our hopes. We regretted nothing, but whereas we over here are inspired by this frame of mind, I am told that in Rome factions and conspiracies are rife, that treachery flourishes, and that many people in their uncertainty and confusion lend a ready ear to the dire temptations of relinquishment and vilify our action.

I cannot believe that all this is true, and yet recent wars have shown how pernicious such a state of mind could be and to where it could lead.

Make haste to reassure me, I beg you, and tell me that our fellow citizens understand us, support us and protect us as we ourselves are protecting the glory of the Empire.

If it should be otherwise, if we should have to leave our bleached bones on these desert sands in vain, then beware the anger of the Legions!"

--Letter from Marcus Flavinius, centurion in the 2d Cohort of the Augusta Legion

Novus Ordo Seclorum???

 

[V4Vendetta]

I was going to post a long comment here that I'm reasonably positive would have offended everybody here so I'm not gonna say anything unless someone cares enough to PM me & ask there. But to those who do, you've been warned .

 

[1wildbill]

Have we become like Ancient Rome?
Yes. But not only like in your quote.
Both scenarios look very similar.

 

[Manedwolf]

Yes, we have. In everything from overextending the reach of military, to profligate spending, to porous borders, to overt corruption, and to an entire class of people who live in "undefended, unarmed villas", so to speak, with the expectation that the might of the Empire will protect them from any harm.

And what scares me most is when you compare the eloquence of that letter (The Romans had nearly everything we have short of electricity and steam power, they were darned near up to the late 19th century in everything else), with the absolute ruin and ignorance that followed the collapse, with people literally living beneath the toppled pillars their ancestors built.

I hope we don't follow THAT parallel, too.

 

[Diamondback6]

I'd say the whole "bread and circuses" (welfare and pop-culture) is going to be our downfall, but that's just my opinion.

 

[CAnnoneer]

A chilling parallel, isn't it?

Add to the above a powergrab by the execute branch and our own caste of inbred nobility/politicians/senators who worry only about their own interests and undermine the state and system in the process. We even have a Claudius in charge.

V4V, say what you want. Offending is the least we should be worried about in this day and age.

 

[Rustler]

We are fast approaching the decline of western civilization...

 

[bouis]

Rome was corrupt beyond belief for pretty much the entire run as an empire and most of it as a republic, from at least the point where Hannibal destroyed the citizen/farmer class. But as long as it was Rome, it could survive just about anything.

When Rome was just a city, what made it remarkable wasn't its military prowess, but the will of its people to fight and to see things through to the end. One big defeat could destroy any other empire, even one of tens of millions, but the city of Rome could lose ten battles and never give up. And sometimes they really would lose ten battles, like against Hannibal or the Teutons. But Rome always eventually prevailed, and came out if it stronger.

What you really have to wonder is -- how could Rome be invincible as a city of a few hundred thousand, but fragile as an Empire of a hundred million? The answer is scary because of how closely it parallels what's happening here, today.

Once, being a Roman citizen was an honor, worth something - worth fighting for. But over time, just about everyone in the Empire became citizens, and so being a Roman meant nothing. You could be a Roman in name without being a Roman in character. It was something you could take for granted, and people did. "Rome" no longer existed, and so no one would fight for it. So the empire was overrun, and eventually the new rulers didn't even bother to keep the name...

 

[Old Dog]

Rustler chips in with:

We are fast approaching the decline of western civilization..

Ah, Rustler, you need to get out of California from time to time, visit a free state, and hopefully, you'll not be as cynical.

 

[Cosmoline]

Rome was in many ways a totally alien place. We draw some aspects of our government from the Republic, but only some. As far as social and family life, Imperial Rome would be as foreign to an American as outer Mongolia. Everything from the notion of "rights" to the basic structure of the economy was different. Even something as basic as nationalism was very different. There were no nations as we understand them. The concept simply did not exist yet. The Roman Empire was a series of controls with a myriad of inherent weaknesses. First and foremost, the selection process for Caesar and the system for transferring power were very primitive and never worked very well. Beyond that the empire never matured into a nation. There was no national identity to unify the empire. There were citizens of Rome, but they are better viewed as the elite of an ancient caste system than the members of a coherent, self-contained nation. The dominant religious views were still based on ancient polytheistic faith, and led to a belief system and way of thinking utterly alien to a modern American--even a modern atheist.

Because of these and many, many other differences, comparisons between the fall of Rome and the decline of the modern US are pointless. You might just as well compare the fall of the Mayans or the Ching Dynasty with the U.S. You can always find some bit or piece of similarity, but that doesn't really prove anything. You're still comparing apples and oranges.

You're also proceeding from a false premise. The Roman Empire did not fall until 1453, when the Turks finally broke Constantinople.

If you want to see similarities between what the US is going through now and what other nations have gone through, a much better place to look is right across the pond to Europe, where a number of nations have collapsed from modern global empires to bitter little burned out relics in the EU. There's your future. Not invading huns, but an increasingly old population and reliance on foreign guest workers to keep their social security net intact and the tax base from collapsing.

 

[Thin Black Line]

I was going to post a long comment here that I'm reasonably positive would have offended everybody here so I'm not gonna say anything unless someone cares enough to PM me & ask there. But to those who do, you've been warned

LOL, ok, I'll bite.

When Rome was just a city, what made it remarkable wasn't its military prowess, but the will of its people to fight and to see things through to the end.

Rome followed a "citizen-soldier" example early on where it was defended
and then people went back to their "normal" jobs, mostly farming. Later
on, the soldiers were deployed more often for longer periods of time and
came back to be strangers in their own land --their own private property
was often taken over by those who had NOT served. I guess this was
some form of ancient emminent domain Likewise, the slaves they
has sent back from conquered countries ended up working their former
lands under the new owners. Today things are a little different: our
factories are sent overseas and the farming is done by imported cheap
labor, rather than slaves (a less costly system for modern owners).

The Roman Empire did not fall until 1453, when the Turks finally broke Constantinople.

Maybe you and I could agree that we currently have a two-headed empire
like Rome-Constantinople and DC-Brussels? Keep in mind that 1/2 of
the Empire (Rome) had fallen long before 1453 --more like 453-- which
ushered in the Dark Ages. And, as one poster had mentioned, much of
their technology at the time was lost to the successors of the Western
Roman Empire.

Sure, the future is up for grabs. What if Old Europe becomes the East and
the US becomes the West as history repeats itself? I can certainly see
this in the short-sighted circus games of our so-called leaders here in the
US.

I guess the big question would be what makes the US more stable than
Ancient Rome (West)?

 

[V4Vendetta]

"V4V, say what you want. Offending is the least we should be worried about in this day and age."


That second sentence I feel is very accurate. However I was warned a while back by a mod that I was about to be banned unless I stopped upsetting people so I now try to watch what I post.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

This has been my opinion for years. The parallels are too many to ignore. And as the imperial executive replaces the republic, we, like the ancient Romans, will lose our traditional liberties too. We are already seeing this. As political power concentrates centrally, individual liberty recedes in like degree. It's almost a law of nature.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Excellent post Cosmoline

I'm in agreement with you, especially in your last paragraph.
I suppose the next question to be answered is what to do now. How do we become the generation that turns the tide of the crumbling empire (whether it paralells to France or Rome)? Or, do we simply step aside to avoid the falling pieces, shovel in hand;ready to begin digging in and rebuilding once the dust settles?

 

[Nashmack]

I've read Revelations, and it seems that the end times are upon us. Keeping this in my mind it seems that the fall of the empire is the least of my worries.

 

[Old Dog]

A chilling parallel, isn't it?

Hardly.

I guess the big question would be what makes the US more stable than Ancient Rome (West)?

You're kidding, right?

 

[Manedwolf]

I've read Revelations, and it seems that the end times are upon us. Keeping this in my mind it seems that the fall of the empire is the least of my worries.

I am far more worried about those in positions of power who believe such things AND believe they have a role in bringing it about. That's what you call a "self-fulfilling prophecy".

 

[Lupinus]

I think there are many parallels.

Circuses and games
People became more interested in circuses and games then they did in working, and to keep the people happy the government and rich gave it to them more and more just escalating the problem, turning more and more of the people into mindless happy but lazy unproductive zombies. Nowadays it is more and more crap on TV (and other entertainment) furthering the decline of the culture, just as the games did. And instead of tossing bread into the stands we toss out welfare checks. Just like then, today people care more about their personal lives and being entertained then they do about working for the good of themselves and for their nation.

Spending
Just like ancient room, we are spending more and more. They spent more and more on the circus, we spend more on....well everything. Welfare, aid to others when we have our own problems, etc. They bankrupted themselves and to many extents we are doing the same. You can only tax people so much.

False security
The average Roman lived in the best city of it's time surrounded literally by friendly territory for hundreds of miles. If you lived in Rome or Italy in general or even many other parts of the empire you lived in what amounts to the dead center of the USA. More if you take into account the length of travel time, look how hard it was for Hannibal to get to Rome from Spain, he lost much of his army trying to do that. They became safe feeling, their walls deteriorated and were overrun. They considered themselves invincible when they weren't invincible at all. The last people to sack Rome were the Gauls and that was more then 200 years before the imperial era. That's more then 200 BC. How long ago was it again the last time Washington DC was taken by another nation?

Lack of meaning
As has been mentioned everyone was becoming a "Roman" in the conquered territories. It was becoming increasingly easier to the point that auxiliaries were becoming roman citizens after serving in the legion for 20 years.
It used to take money, lots and lots of money, and status too to become a Roman citizen if you were in one of the Provence and not from Latinum itself or later on Italy as the empire grew older and bigger. The army filled with people who didn't care, and weren't romans. It became so bad that eventually most of the Roman army weren't even from Italy but from Provence.

Military
The military became over extended, keep in mind the Roman army at its largest never really topped 500,000 or so. Also in the beginning serving in the army was considered a right of passage when you were needed, and a privilege to early on you had to be land owning and of senatorial class to serve in the army. Those from Provence or lower classes were used as auxiliaries only and never as the main line- either hesati (younger and/or poorer), principles (experienced and/or richer), or triarii (the most experienced and richest troops). Anyone not a land owning citizen served as an auxiliary. Then in 107 BC a Roman statesmen named Gaius Marius put through the senate what is known as the Marian Reforms. In short, this allowed anyone who was a Roman citizen, regardless of class, to join the army as the new backbone called the legionnaire as a paid professional soldier. Up until this time the army was called up when needed and it wasn't a full time job. This created two problems. The first being when you are called away from your farm for several years to go campaigning in some god awful place your older brother used to tell you scary stories about it doesn't do well for moral, especially as time goes on. And not being professional soldiers they need to be called in and aren't as good since it isn't what they do 24/7. It is also much, much more expensive. How does it compare? Well what did we have in the beginning? A small core of full timers with the bulk being militia called when needed. Now the army is fully professional for the most part, we are going halfway around the world for no reason in some circumstances, we are getting overextended, and we are letting anyone in and less people have interest in serving.

Corruption
When Rome was a republic it actually wasn't such a bad place, especially when compared to it's time. But it became corrupt. Much like today in the US. People working only for the gain of themselves and friends, and a business willing to "donate" money next election. Instead of the army, it is corporations. Perhaps to a lesser extent, but many officials are seriously corrupt.

 

[Nashmack]

I don't quite believe they can cause it. God works in God's time.

On another note, one more in line with the topic, I dont believe the US is destined to last more than 75 more years even if the Rapture does not occur in our lifetimes. I believe that the ruling elite in this country are doing their absolute best to tear the country in two, and from what I see they're doing an excellent job. Think about this: "UNITED we stand; DIVIDED we fall" Maybe someday soon we'll have California, The Republic of Texas, New England, and whatever the other regions want to be called by then. Then we can be just like the Balkans.

Are we going to end up like Rome? In some respects yes. Every empire falls at some time or another. Not necessarily in the same ways, but it happens nonetheless. When it happens and anarchy rules, I'll be standing ready with my equalizers attempting to instill peace and order, but at the same time standing prepared for battle.

 

[V4Vendetta]

I've been told by various people in my PM's that I should post my message here. I'm going to do so but if you moddies get your panties in a wad, I'll delete it.

So be it. Yes, we are like Rome. Most of us Americans, including myself are overweight & out of shape. They aren't willing to do what's needed to fight a war. They want the moral highground instead of fighting fire with better fire. I believe that America will lose the war in Iraq & Afganistan. Not because of low quality weapons or horrible soldiers, but because they have changed so much. America's armed forces nowadays are like the British during the revolutionary war. They British from back then wore bright uniforms that make them stand out while the Americans hid in trees & splashed mud on themselves to blend in. US troops on the news are doing the same thing. Instead of quietly walking into a BG base wearing muslim clothing with a Uzi underneath it & wasting everybody there, they march right out in the open with loud tanks & bright uniforms.

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't know where people are getting the idea that Americans work less than Republican Romans. The model you aspire to was deeply flawed and had nothing to do with working hard! The paterfamilia of ancient Rome was much closer to an English nobleman or southern plantation owner than any ideal we would want to aspire to. His mass of extended family members, slaves and servants did the work. Americans are hardly lying around all day living off olive farm proceeds. We're working harder than ever, with productivity levels that would be impossible for Rome to contemplate. The GDP of a small state is greater than that of their entire empire at its peak.

A lot of these myths seem to be coming from preachers, not historians. I guess folks are being told on Sunday that we're going to fall like Rome and somehow this has gotten mixed in with Revelations. The comparision gets even more bizarre when you consider the "fall" of Rome they identify came when the empire was Christianized! But of course it did not fall. Rome's dominance shifted east, and the west broke down into pieces. The dark ages weren't as dark as people think, and Imperial Rome wasn't as bright.

 

[agricola]

Republican Rome was a regime driven, and eventually destroyed, by the narrow self-interest of its ruling clique. For instance, the likes of Cato and Cicero might talk a good game when it comes to citizens rights, freedom and justice but lets not forget that they (and, interestingly, not Caesar) were the ones who demanded the execution without trial of the Catalinarian conspirators; Cato the Elder would harp on endlessly about his simplicity and virtue for an age, despite him being blatantly wrong in opposing the one man who defeated Hannibal (and eventually driving him out of the city). In fact, the rule of Caesar, and especially Augustus, could well be the dawn of sanity that Rome had needed for so long.

You, indeed almost every modern state, are nothing like the Romans in that respect - laws actually mean something here, and the political class is (however much it would appear to be so) not limited to a hundred or so families.

 

[Justin]

Ladies and germs, I give you The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization; The Blog.

The guy's a crank who I rarely agree with, but it makes for interesting reading nonetheless.

 

[Thin Black Line]

You're kidding, right?

Not at all. I'm deadly serious about it, especially having spent my
deployment in Iraq maintaining access to our empire's, er, country's
oil, er, vital strategic resources. The expansion of the Roman Empire
was for resources. We like to roll our actions up in the language of
"spreading demcracy" and "stopping genocide." But, in the end it's
about supporting our Empire and the American way of life. Funny
thing is our way of life use to be about religious freedom and getting
control of how we worship away from the State, now it's the religion of
hedonistic freedom so long as it's within the guidelines of the State.

Republican Rome was a regime driven, and eventually destroyed, by the narrow self-interest of its ruling clique.

Hmmm....anything like those who live within the DC beltway now?
Y'know, the people who consider most of the interior US as unimportant
"fly-over" states?

They aren't willing to do what's needed to fight a war.

Roger that. But, I'll combine it with the previous comment on the
ruling clique and ask where are the ruling clique's children in this war?
Are they in Iraq or Afghanistan? No, of course not. This is where we
have mirrored Rome before her fall. It amazes me how we once had a
generation that went to Yale AND served in WWII, but their children and
grand children are the epitomes of idiot trust fund babies. I like to quote
the OT rather than Revelations (so as not to forget our foundation) and I
think Is 39:8 is accurate here in the sense that the king is comfortable
during his lifetime and does not care about the next generation. ("There
is going to be peace and security during my lifetime.")

 

[Charles S]

So be it. Yes, we are like Rome. Most of us Americans, including myself are overweight & out of shape. They aren't willing to do what's needed to fight a war. They want the moral highground instead of fighting fire with better fire. I believe that America will lose the war in Iraq & Afganistan. Not because of low quality weapons or horrible soldiers, but because they have changed so much. America's armed forces nowadays are like the British during the revolutionary war. They British from back then wore bright uniforms that make them stand out while the Americans hid in trees & splashed mud on themselves to blend in. US troops on the news are doing the same thing. Instead of quietly walking into a BG base wearing muslim clothing with a Uzi underneath it & wasting everybody there, they march right out in the open with loud tanks & bright uniforms.

I don’t find it personally offensive in the least. You are stating a fact.

Read Sun Zu The Art of War, The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musas and it leads to the unique perspective that we, the United States, no longer understand strategy, or how to fight a war.

Certain sects have ham stung the military and will not allow us to fight to win. It is the same as it was in Viet Nam.

I honestly believe that there are segments, groups, of our populous that want us to loose.

What you are describing is correct, but it is a societal problem, and I honestly don’t know the solution.

Charles