Have we become like Ancient Rome?

[BFWE]

Important to remember:

I think it is important to remember that Rome as an empire never "fell". It cracked and fragmented in a relatively slow process. If we synthesise what some people have already said with what Cosmoline said then I believe the parallels between the US and the Roman Empire will become clearer.

 

[Baba Louie]

As many of you have pointed out, there are several parallels between the Roman Empire and ours. Or the earlier British Empire and ours. Probably between ancient Cathay and ours if you want to look long and hard enough.

So?

No one lives forever. Ideas become passe. Cultures become intertwined, weakened. Politicians, corrupt. People... blas'e.

BTDT
Call it...
A pendulum.
A circle.

It was Robert Frost who said "In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it goes on."

Change is the only constant. What era of American history would you want us to remain locked into? 1780? Slavery, women's rights, native americans, medicine, industry (if that?)
1860? Nah
1900? Maybe, cept for child labor laws and a few other icky things
1950? Cold War, Communism, Baby Boom (nice cars tho')
2000?

Has there ever been a perfect anything? Let alone America?

BUT, we should learn from history. Not that many paid attention in class.

Then there are those who care enough to educate their kids. Who work hard for their living. Who want things to be better for the future.

I don't know what you all think, but the past 50 years on this planet as an American have been... pretty cool. In a way. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Habla Espanol?

 

[12-34hom]

It's good to be the King!

When i look at the politicians and Washington D.C. The only parallel i make is.

Mel Brooks - History of the world - Part 1.

12-34hom.

 

[longeyes]

Not to worry. Just as all wisdom ends up as slogans on t-shirts and, more recently, as sig lines on the billboards of THR posters, all civilizations end up as video games played by that culture's epigonoi.

Carpe diem, carpe deum, and carpe dum-dum.

 

[Lindenberger]

Cosmoline

As an Ancient Studies major (B.A., Univ of MD, Balto. Cnty., 1980), I disagree with many of your assertions. I really don't care to write a thesis, so I'll state my belief that the Roman Empire never really died--it became transformed into what we know today as Western Civilization. Probably the Roman Catholic Church had as much--or more--to do with this than did any other factor. Our legal system is largely Roman, modified by the French and Brits, etc., etc. But I believe we are living today in--essentially--The Roman Empire.

 

[longeyes]

Yes, and it morphed into the New World Order, which we can all celebrate tomorrow on 6-6-6.

 

[Lindenberger]

Longeyes

LOL.

 

[shootinstudent]

Our legal system is largely Roman, modified by the French and Brits, etc., etc. But I believe we are living today in--essentially--The Roman Empire.

I have to side with Cosmoline on this one. I think it is much more accurate to say that, similar to the situation in this thread, Europeans have always compared their societies to an idealized Roman Empire that never really existed. The legend of the Roman Empire has always loomed large, but the actual workings of the Empire were not even recognizably "Roman" in the classical sense in the Eastern half after a few centuries.

Our own legal system is largely different from the Civil law nations that do in fact follow the Roman law pattern. I'm curious to hear, though, what significant links you think the common law states have with the Roman legal system.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

Yes. We have. Bread and circuses, leaders not at all accountable to anyone.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

The Roman Empire never really died--it became transformed into what we know today as Western Civilization.

The Western Roman Empire collapsed long before it's Eastern counterpart, but they both quite definitely fell. There was a time when the western world was ruled by one government. Then it split in two. One half fell apart into feudalism, and the other was eventually overrun by an Islamic Empire, quite distinct from the Roman Empire which it conquered. You seem to be merging the concepts of empire and culture/tradition. They mean different things.

 

[Lindenberger]

Shootinstudent

Language is much more than a means of expression. It reflects an entire
Weltanschauung, a cosmological understanding. Now, at the risk of sounding rhetorical or simplistic, I ask you--"What is the language of law?" Moreover, open a dictionary and randomly stick your finger on a word (Latin, verbum). Probably 7 of 10 times that verbum(pronounced ware-bum ) will be Latin in origin. Remove the Latin from English and "the English language" would cease to exist. You refer also to "the Eastern half"--ummm--commonly known as The Byzantine, perhaps? And rather thoroughly "Eastern" it was, wasn't it? You may wish to consider spending less time "Shootin'" and more time "studyin.'"

 

[Lindenberger]

The Real Hawkeye

One mans "fall" is another mans "morph."

"Prides goes before a fall." Does that mean "cease to exist?" And when I refer to Rome, it is to its culture and tradition that I make reference--to its mores (pr. maw-rays; from whence, morals). It would be specious to separate the Roman Empire from its mores. I've never encountered its being done--but--there are lots of things I've never encountered.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

The Real Hawkeye

One mans "fall" is another mans "morph."

"Prides goes before a fall." Does that mean "cease to exist?"

Among other things, "empire" implies rule by a central authority. This rule by central authority ceased at a certain point in history. What was the empire morphed into a series of smaller political units which were themselves no longer part of the empire, since the empire no longer existed. You will not be able to support your theory, therefore, that the Roman Empire never fell. The culture perpetuated by the Empire did indeed survive the Empire itself, but that's quite another matter entirely.

 

[Lindenberger]

Empire

One could also make the argument that we are the continuation of the British Empire. Given that "Empire" implies "central authority," just because that "authority" has been lost does not necessarily mean that the empire itself has--of a sudden--ceased to exist. I maintain that the culture is the empire and that it is so defined. Your conclusion--"You will not be able to support your theory, therefore, that the Roman Empire never fell" is a non sequitor and your logic is flawed. Wasn't Charles the Greats domain known as The Holy Roman Empire?


The argument could be made that we are the modern expression of Ancient Israel, given monotheism and the Advent--but that's an entire thesis itself.

 

[WeedWhacker]

Instead of quietly walking into a BG base wearing muslim clothing with a Uzi underneath it & wasting everybody there, they march right out in the open with loud tanks & bright uniforms.

While we may disagree somewhat on tactics and the importance of proper uniforms in battle, your comment reminded me of how absurdly we Americans/the gov't coddles those we are at war with.

www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39170
"Army told Jewish ammo OK for training but not fighting Muslim guerrillas". What. The. Heck? Of course, I may be the only one who sees the absurdity behind this, considering my plan for "Islamic terrorist deterrence" was to bury any remains of terrorists found along with a hot dog.

Killing Moslem terrorists with an Israeli designed-and-built firearm is just asking for the wrath of Allah!

 

[shootinstudent]

Now, at the risk of sounding rhetorical or simplistic, I ask you--"What is the language of law?" Moreover, open a dictionary and randomly stick your finger on a word (Latin, verbum). Probably 7 of 10 times that verbum(pronounced ware-bum ) will be Latin in origin. Remove the Latin from English and "the English language" would cease to exist. You refer also to "the Eastern half"--ummm--commonly known as The Byzantine, perhaps? And rather thoroughly "Eastern" it was, wasn't it? You may wish to consider spending less time "Shootin'" and more time "studyin.'"

Maybe you can help me to study by elaborating this point.

Are you seriously claiming that, because many words in the english language are latin based, therefore, our legal system is a Roman legal system at heart?

And are you claiming that the Roman Empire as it existed from Constantinople...wait, what exactly is your claim there?

 

[LAK]

Yes, we definately are, in several ways. One reason Rome fell was fiat money and excessive spending.

-------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

 

[Working Man]

I skimmed through the posts here and I do not think anyone hit on this.

One of the biggest similarities is the fact that both Rome and the USA have
spent a great deal of time and money in distracting the masses from what's
going on in the "Empire". Much effort has been given to take a band aid
approach as a solution rather than finding a long term fix for the problem.
Rather than the Colosseum and the Hippodrome we have TV, movies, and
various incentive programs to keep the populace quelled or distracted (of
course we do have Football, UFC, and horse racing).

I do believe the Romans were also hand over the heart as well.

In our primes we are/were both the most powerful nations for our time but
will be toppled by corruption and weakness within. Both are/had become
decedent, lazy, preoccupied with temporary happiness in any form both trite
and perverse, and very short sighted.

Just keep an eye out for imported Egyptian sand.

 

[Thin Black Line]

And when I refer to Rome, it is to its culture and tradition that I make reference--to its mores (pr. maw-rays; from whence, morals). It would be specious to separate the Roman Empire from its mores.

Yes, but Roman mores changed greatly over time. In fact, one could
say that they changed as they absorbed other cultures. We also see
this with Israel/Judea in the OT as an earlier parallel.

I was referring to central gov't authority which did fragment and collapse for
the Western/Roman Empire.

But, could we also say that US mores have been changing? Are they
absorbing other cultures/belief systems and changing? Are they changing in
ways similar to old Rome?

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

One could also make the argument that we are the continuation of the British Empire.

Oh, so if Exxon closes a service station in my town, and then Amoco opens one, Amoco is the new Exxon in my town? And you call my logic faulty?

Given that "Empire" implies "central authority," just because that "authority" has been lost does not necessarily mean that the empire itself has--of a sudden--ceased to exist.

Who said "of a sudden?" It was rather sudden in the East, but the West gradually collapsed. However, there was a point when the Roman empire in the West ceased to exist. Naturally, a power vacuum resulted, but that was not filled by another empire for quite some time to come.

I maintain that the culture is the empire and that it is so defined.

Oh, so this is the source of your error.

Your conclusion--"You will not be able to support your theory, therefore, that the Roman Empire never fell" is a non sequitor and your logic is flawed. Wasn't Charles the Greats domain known as The Holy Roman Empire?

I assume that the last sentence is the one which presumes to prove my assertion a nonsequitur and my logic faulty? Well, let me quickly dispose of it then. Charlemagne's empire was called, by the Roman Catholic Church, the Holy Roman Empire in an effort to ensconce itself as its religious head, and to use it's power to its own benefit. Charlemagn was more than happy to accept this designation, as he also benefited by it. You are not seriously suggesting, I hope, that merely because something takes the name of something else that it therefore becomes said thing, are you? If so, from henceforth, my name is Gaius Octavius ... that's Caesar Augustus to you. Bow to me, and send me tribute in the equivalent of ten thousand denari by the end of the month, and every month from this day forth, and I shall be lenient with you.

 

[Lindenberger]

Tribute

It's in the mail--as soon as the Pope so designates you.

"All roads lead to Rome."

 

[thesneakyrussian]

One of the biggest similarities is the fact that both Rome and the USA have
spent a great deal of time and money in distracting the masses from what's
going on in the "Empire". Much effort has been given to take a band aid
approach as a solution rather than finding a long term fix for the problem.
Rather than the Colosseum and the Hippodrome we have TV, movies, and
various incentive programs to keep the populace quelled or distracted (of
course we do have Football, UFC, and horse racing).

i've seen this "point" one time to many. here's what's wrong with it:

how has "the USA have spent a great deal of time and money in distracting the masses from what's going on in the "Empire"? is everything on TV paid for by the taxes? i was under impression it was all free enterprise, or am i wrong?

that was one.

two: the information is freely available to anyone who seeks it, but most people are either too preoccupied with shopping, following life of celeberties or are just too plain stupid to realize that they have to participate in their society by not only consuming. in any case, i don't see how you (any of you who drew similar parallels) find any resemblance between rome and the u.s. unless you really believe in the conspiracy theory of global government mind control in which case you probably need a tin-foil hat.

 

[longeyes]

succotash, cultural

All great cultures leave longevitous legacies, whether it's monotheism from Egypt and Israel or hydrology and civil engineering from Rome or common law from Britain or guerrilla fighting from the Mongols or the Native Americans. So too shall we. People find what they need as they need it. America will never totally die, and someday there will be a forum discussing what we contributed and how much of it remains.

Relax. Keep stirring. Eat.

 

[Frandy]

the information is freely available to anyone who seeks it, but most people are either too preoccupied with shopping, following life of celeberties or are just too plain stupid to realize that they have to participate in their society by not only consuming. in any case, i don't see how you (any of you who drew similar parallels) find any resemblance between rome and the u.s. unless you really believe in the conspiracy theory of global government mind control in which case you probably need a tin-foil hat.

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but this works for me.

Of course, spreading the military out a bit too thin didn't help them and it ain't helping us right now. More complicated than that for both, but still something to think about.

Ancient Rome did have better drinking water than most of us do.

 

[longeyes]

i don't see how you (any of you who drew similar parallels) find any resemblance between rome and the u.s. unless you really believe in the conspiracy theory of global government mind control in which case you probably need a tin-foil hat.

Absolutely appropriate quote for 6-6-06. Of course it's not a "conspiracy" when the perpetrators are breathing together, quite openly, in public, and have been for decades. The intentions are overt and well-advertised.