Have we made the smallest 9mm yet
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MCgunner
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9s aren't hard to shoot. Try a 12 ounce Smith and Wesson M340 with a 180 Buffalo Bore equivalent handload.
6.4 grains Unique behind a 115 Hornady XTP gives me 1263 fps from a Kel Tec P11. That's my carry. I would have gotten a PF9 if it'd been available at the time, but I like the P11 and shoot it well and it works as a pocket carry for me.
6.4 grains Unique behind a 115 Hornady XTP gives me 1263 fps from a Kel Tec P11. That's my carry. I would have gotten a PF9 if it'd been available at the time, but I like the P11 and shoot it well and it works as a pocket carry for me.
dprice3844444
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i can buy 2 glock 26's for the price of 1 boberg
LawofThirds
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How is that relevant?
Are we including the single/double shot derringers? Or is this semi-auto only? The single shot "Liberator" 9mm is credit card sized, I doubt you can get anything smaller. If semi-auto, the rohrbaugh R9 is still the smallest as far as I know, but the Boberg probably gets the nod for barrel length to size ratio (it's 5.1" long vs the R9's 5.2" but the R9 beats it on thickness and height and total volume)
MCgunner
Member
For pocket carry, my P11 is small enough. What one must determine is what's "small enough" If you're a little guy with little pockets, you might worry more about physical size, but me, I like LIGHT for all day pocket carry. I can handle the recoil of a 9 in such a gun, not a problem. For me, the present array of available pocket nines from Kel Tec, Kahr, Ruger, Taurus, et al is truly a Godsend to concealed carry. I remember not all that long ago when we were faced with either a PPK or the .25s for pocket carry. Now days, there are .380s the size of those .25s and 9s ain't that much bigger.
Edarnold
Member
Smaller 9x19 autoloader
I think the existing guns have probably hit, or are very near the limit, for size and weight. You can't cheat Physics: the recoil force of the 9x19 cartridge requires the resistance of a certain minimum mass, or the resistance of some hellacious springs, or some new method of locking the breech. If you wanted smaller, and were willing to accept more weight, you could make the slide of something like a tungsten alloy. Perhaps a gas-retardation system like the H&K P7 could eliminate the need for the moving barrel.
But no matter how much weight you save in the frame using miracle materials, it still has to house the cartridges and a firing mechanism, so it has a minimum volume. And the less mass is present in the gun when it's fired, the more likely a malfunction.
Thus the success of the 1911 after a century: big hunks of steel in motion.
I think the existing guns have probably hit, or are very near the limit, for size and weight. You can't cheat Physics: the recoil force of the 9x19 cartridge requires the resistance of a certain minimum mass, or the resistance of some hellacious springs, or some new method of locking the breech. If you wanted smaller, and were willing to accept more weight, you could make the slide of something like a tungsten alloy. Perhaps a gas-retardation system like the H&K P7 could eliminate the need for the moving barrel.
But no matter how much weight you save in the frame using miracle materials, it still has to house the cartridges and a firing mechanism, so it has a minimum volume. And the less mass is present in the gun when it's fired, the more likely a malfunction.
Thus the success of the 1911 after a century: big hunks of steel in motion.
JohnBT
Member
"look again
The Stinger .38"
.380, .38, six of one half a dozen, etc. The thread is titled 9mm autoloaders.
The Stinger .38"
.380, .38, six of one half a dozen, etc. The thread is titled 9mm autoloaders.
In a previous lifetime I was an engineer and I fully realize that physics is the king here when we are talking about minimizing 9mm LUGER handgun size.
And I’ve always thought that the MK9/PM9, my favorite small 9mm LUGER handgun carried a bit of extra mass.
For example the slide appears to have a bit of extra mass to my eye anyway.
I’ve always wondered what one would look like if an experienced ‘smith, were to do an “ultra extreme maximum melt job” on them.
Not just a smoothing but really removing some mass. And a concentration on making it as "flat" (slim?,narrow?) as possible.
I wonder how far “down” he could take it.
Thanks,
Don.
And I’ve always thought that the MK9/PM9, my favorite small 9mm LUGER handgun carried a bit of extra mass.
For example the slide appears to have a bit of extra mass to my eye anyway.
I’ve always wondered what one would look like if an experienced ‘smith, were to do an “ultra extreme maximum melt job” on them.
Not just a smoothing but really removing some mass. And a concentration on making it as "flat" (slim?,narrow?) as possible.
I wonder how far “down” he could take it.
Thanks,
Don.
Kel-Tec, Kahr, Rorbaugh, now Boberg or the rare Colt Pocket 9.. all pretty darn small 9mm's.
Glad to hear that sig is making a 9mm version of the 238. I have looked at the Nano, Shield,Sig 290, and lc9, in the last 2 days, and haven't been happy with any of them in as far as a replacement for my lcp. For bug purposes I still feel a 9 is needed. I have been doing a lot of reading latelly on actual gunfights, and 9 is just skating by. Just by the size of the hole it makes. Several good articles posted here and in guns america, seem to point to larger calibers. I just can't feel comfortable with the LCP any more when it's my only weapon around the home, thus a larger caliber in a smaller package. The shield can be had in 40, and it's not "that" big, I had my lcp on top of it, and it's amazing what 1/4 to 1/2 inch here or there does to concealment.
The Nano was built around the 40 cal round and backed into the 9mm. Expect that to be out in 40 also soon. But for now I wait.
What I don't like about the nano, is the mag feeds directlly into the feed ramp, which kind of goes against my upbringing, a mag problem can shut you down, as there is no way to hold back the slide, other than by using your other hand. I would have probablly got the shield if they had a 40.
I feel that another thousand dollar gun, is too much to spend when you have 6 guns near that size, it may just be time for a belly band for that other gun.
If so that shield with 8 rounds of 40 should do well for $500.00. Having purchased some very expensive guns I just don't want to go there again, for my back up, my primary is more than that but I don't see a need to spend a thousand on a back up gun in this economy. I can't justify it with as many as I have. You guys who shoot a lot may be able to justify it. But my 4 times a year, doesn't require another gun, just some dry fire, and practice getting it into play.Shooting is a perishible thing but after 40 years of shooting, I have gone a year or two of no shooting, for health reasons, and when I returned I shot as well as when I had stopped.
The Nano was built around the 40 cal round and backed into the 9mm. Expect that to be out in 40 also soon. But for now I wait.
What I don't like about the nano, is the mag feeds directlly into the feed ramp, which kind of goes against my upbringing, a mag problem can shut you down, as there is no way to hold back the slide, other than by using your other hand. I would have probablly got the shield if they had a 40.
I feel that another thousand dollar gun, is too much to spend when you have 6 guns near that size, it may just be time for a belly band for that other gun.
If so that shield with 8 rounds of 40 should do well for $500.00. Having purchased some very expensive guns I just don't want to go there again, for my back up, my primary is more than that but I don't see a need to spend a thousand on a back up gun in this economy. I can't justify it with as many as I have. You guys who shoot a lot may be able to justify it. But my 4 times a year, doesn't require another gun, just some dry fire, and practice getting it into play.Shooting is a perishible thing but after 40 years of shooting, I have gone a year or two of no shooting, for health reasons, and when I returned I shot as well as when I had stopped.
DAdams
Member
I still haven't found anything I like better and am comfortable with than my PM9.
It handles plus p sufficiently well too.
None of the small 9s would I consider "pocket" guns. I find the weight of all of them prohibitive even the pm9 is marginal in the summer.
I haven't tried the R9 it might cut it, but it has a couple of negatives I don't like.
That's why my Seecamp 9mm kurtz fits the bill as my edc.
It handles plus p sufficiently well too.
None of the small 9s would I consider "pocket" guns. I find the weight of all of them prohibitive even the pm9 is marginal in the summer.
I haven't tried the R9 it might cut it, but it has a couple of negatives I don't like.
That's why my Seecamp 9mm kurtz fits the bill as my edc.
MrDig
Member
Don't forget about these
Not an auto loader but I bet they breath fire and jump like all get out
http://www.cobrapistols.net/images/products/Cobra-BigBoreDerringer-lg.jpg
PS I have one as a Back Up Gun
Not an auto loader but I bet they breath fire and jump like all get out
http://www.cobrapistols.net/images/products/Cobra-BigBoreDerringer-lg.jpg
PS I have one as a Back Up Gun
I like mine alright. It is alot more comfortable to fire with the magazine grip extension, is easier to control, and seems to be less prone to limp wristing related failures. I strongly recommend you get one if you don't have it and think you'll like your P40 alot more.Kel-Tec made the P-11 in .40 for a few years. I have one and I can tell you it is NOT fun to shoot!
If you think the Cobra derringers are bad try firing one of the Leinad .410 single shot derringers. Very uncomfortable and I'm not recoil shy at all. The Leinad is the only pistol I've shot that consistently leaves bruises after 20 rounds.
PT92
Member
I can believe that as my P11 with 9mm +P is brutal. Yet I love the gun for its extreme practicality relative to ccw/capacity.
-Cheers
JustSomeDude
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I can't believe nobody has mentioned the Diamondback DB9 yet. It's only barely larger than a P3AT. Everything I read about it is that it's kinda hit or miss on the QC, though.
No experience with the Boberg or the Rohrbaugh, but to my mind the price puts them in the boutique category.
IMO the Kahr CM/PM9 is the smallest practical 9mm (yes, I have the CM9)
No experience with the Boberg or the Rohrbaugh, but to my mind the price puts them in the boutique category.
IMO the Kahr CM/PM9 is the smallest practical 9mm (yes, I have the CM9)
MachIVshooter
Member
Discomfort aside, what good would a semi-auto be if it was so small that it only holds 4 rounds and has to be carefully positioned in the hand to function?
I have to agree with others. The PM9/DB-9 are pretty much the practical limit. If you need smaller, you should be wearing clothes!
steven58
Member
Just got my Boberg a few days ago 150 rounds through it in one session with only one FTF (old box of Remington Golden Saber 147 gr. HP.
Very small, 17.5 oz., 7+1 of +P rated 9 mm., 3.35" bbl gives good velocity, same level of recoil as my HK P7 and very accurate.
Price? The same as I paid for my Kimber Ultra Elite 10 years ago so I think it's a good deal.
Note for reference: My hand is a size "S" for gloves.
Very small, 17.5 oz., 7+1 of +P rated 9 mm., 3.35" bbl gives good velocity, same level of recoil as my HK P7 and very accurate.
Price? The same as I paid for my Kimber Ultra Elite 10 years ago so I think it's a good deal.
Note for reference: My hand is a size "S" for gloves.
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