HD shotgun condition (chamber empty, etc)

[Howaido]

I was talking to a guy at work and he stated that he loads his 870 for HD the following way, which I had never heard of but am now considering.

He keeps a shell in the ejection port and partially closes the chamber, leaving it about an inch or two short of being in battery. He explains that the shell is partially in the chamber at this point, so the feed is certain. Magazine is loaded. Gun is flat on the floor under the bed, ejection port up.

His way of thinking is that:

1. He does not trust keeping one in the chamber, doesn't think it is drop-proof. I tend to agree and keep mine chamber empty for this purpose.

2. Doesn't want to tip off an intruder as to location, etc. by racking a round from the magazine. I see the logic in this.

3. If he needs to use it, it is just a matter of closing the chamber with a fairly quiet "click" as opposed to racking one from the magazine.

I have to tell you, I am thinking about it.

Thoughts?

 

[Carl]

But just hearing the sound of a shotgun slide is all you need to chase off a home intruder. You don't even need to load it!

 

[Fred Fuller]

Just my opinion here, FWIW.

1) If your home defense plan and preparations are in such disrepair that you have so little warning of an intrusion that chambering a round in your shotgun will let an intruder already inside your home know where you are, you need to fix the shortcomings in your perimeter hardening before worrying further about the condition of your shotgun.

2) Shotguns AREN'T drop safe. Keeping the chamber empty under normal circumstances IS a good idea. It is but the work of an instant to chamber a round, and in a solidly constructed home with substantially made AND PROPERLY LOCKED doors and windows, an appropriate alarm system, a dog etc., there should be no way for an intruder to gain entry into the home without the occupants having ample warning and plenty of time to react appropriately to the threat.

3) Chances are that if you have done all you should do to harden your home's perimeter- motion activated lighting, strong doors and windows that are always locked, clear views of your entire property (no places for a criminal to hide), etc, there is much less chance of your home being chosen as a target. The best way to defend against a home invasion is to keep it from happening in the first place.

4) Home invasions are increasing across the country, if media reports are to be believed. But how many of them are happening to plain ordinary citizens? I know in my own area, most home invasions are drug related- druggies seeking to recover stolen drugs, stolen drug money, retaliate against other druggies who stole drugs or drug money, etc. Some are genuine criminal actions against people perceived for whatever reasons to have possessions worth the attempt to steal, or to further a larger criminal operation (kidnapping a family to force a businessman to open a safe at the business, etc). If you aren't a drug dealer, a bank or jewelry store manager, or a rich person who flaunts their wealth, your odds of being the victim of a home invasion are pretty small. None of this is saying you shouldn't take the steps outlined above to prevent random attack, of course, but a realistic perception of the risks involved is important.

FWIW,

lpl

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Both of the HD shotguns and handgun are one rack away from play time. I dont care at this point where the intruder is and am a hunter when the intruder is near the building, the wife is already going to her Alamo and executing her part of the plan before this person hits any part of the door areas.

If Intruder turns out to be neighbor, gas meter reader etc.. all good.

But if invasion is under way and it's not a LEO, that intruder will probably get hurt very badly or die when that door comes down. Prior to that event there is a one hell of alot of verbal yelling and commands to get off the property and go away. If intuder shoots me dead, he aint going past the alamo where the spouse is.

You need to run drills from a variety of situations and learn to spool up to speed should a invasion happen.

I used to keep my shotguns unloaded, shells in thier cases, shotguns in the box under lock etc etc etc. The first drill we pulled on me had me dying while fumbling for the key approx 12 seconds after the front door "Banged down"

The way the guns are now, I need less than 4 for either one and less than two for the handgun if in another part of the home.

Adopt early warning and live to see another day. For me it's a dog and a camera system that sees the land and has motion detectors in other places; no vehicle crosses into my drive without me knowing about it and that sensor is buried.

 

[mljdeckard]

I'm not getting the practicality of this one. A round HALFWAY in the chamber? If the advantage of having a round chambered is silence, you are still giving up that advantage with a......half slide, or whatever he thinks he is doing. When you rack a slide to chamber a round, your forward stroke must be full and forceful. This is how the gun was designed. I don't want to cock a shotgun from a half-stroke any more than I would want to let the slide on an auto pistol fall halfway and expect it to go into full battery.

I'm stretching my mind to see where being drop-safe has ever made a difference in an HD shotgun. Like Lee said, they aren't drop-safe. I'm imagining a Mythbusters style test where you repeatedly drop a shotgun muzzle-first onto concrete to find out how far it has to fall to be forced to discharge. I'd be MUCH more concerned about short-stroking, fumbling the round rattling around the chamber so that it either falls out or gets stuck, something along these lines. The slide isn't locked. It is free to slam back and forth. If he were forced to reach under the bed, in a panic, with one hand, at a weird angle, (or any of a dozen weird circumstances that occur when someone is trying to kill you,) he couldn't guarantee being able to grab the right part of the gun, from the right direction to ensure that the slide doesn't come back instead of forward.

I keep mine full magazine, chamber empty, slide locked. This is mainly because I have young children, not because I think it's a good idea to try to scare an intruder with the sound. I DO THINK that most of the time the sound is a good thing, not a bad thing.

 

[LoneStarWings]

Personally I keep the chamber empty and safety on in my pump. Isn't that scary cha-chunk part of the reason for having it? I keep my handgun condition 1 if I need something fast.

And I'm kidding about the cha-chunk, before I get chastised.

 

[Arbor]

Buck/slug/buck/slug, safety on.

 

[ilmonster]

I keep the SG in the bedroom unloaded. Shells are right next to it. I can load it with 5 rounds in seconds (practice, practice). A gun is the last defense. Two beagles barking up a storm should keep most intruders away. If they do decide to come in uninvited, I'll hole up with my better half and the dogs in the bedroom, door closed with the SG pointed at the entrance. If someone comes through the door threatening our lives, then it's go-time. Hopefully it never comes to that.

 

[Iansstud]

I do chamber empty... Check unloaded 3x... Dry fire, load 1buck,4buck, 1buck, 4buck...

If someone brakes in, I grab my 45 on my hip, and my 870, this way I can shuck the shotgun w/o looking for the pump release. My home is single level so you can clearly tell your eff'd at any entrance when you brake in...

 

[Iansstud]

Oh, I keep the wife in the bedroom with the ar15, and a g26 w/ 17+1, I've got a 900 lumen led flashlight that will blind you, I announce you have 1 warning... (I have heard this from a few people in wa) I then shuck my gun, give the wife the nod and sweep my home like I have 100's of times!

My house is setup with a driveway alarm, and I would probably know if 80% of the tweakers / dumb criminals are here, the door frames are steel,with cement walls, I WILL hear IF you get in, then.... Goodluck, may the most trained win.

I personally know someone that was sued by a home invader for being injured... I'm sorry but you won't have that option at my house

 

[DesmoDucRob]

What is the shotgun carry condition most often used by police departments? Anyone have first-hand knowledge, and the reasoning behind it?

 

[chuckusaret]

But just hearing the sound of a shotgun slide is all you need to chase off a home intruder. You don't even need to load it!

I think it alerts the intruder to your location and he blows your head off. I keep my shotgun loaded with a shell in the chamber plus 7 in the tube.

 

[Iansstud]

I think it alerts the intruder to your location and he blows your head off. I keep my shotgun loaded with a shell in the chamber plus 7 in the tube.

Umm... NO... Wrong.... Thats just what I want them to think... then i pop a flashbang around the corner... and light em up!!

 

[Fred Fuller]

What is the shotgun carry condition most often used by police departments?

Most of them teach and require what's known as 'cruiser ready.' That means a loaded magazine and an empty chamber.

http://www.state.nj.us/lps/dcj/njptc/pdf/bfcman04.pdf

"The administrative load is a loading mode during which the trainee will load the
shotgun in a way that is to be carried in a patrol vehicle (cruiser ready).
Generally, the shotgun is carried without a round in the chamber, action closed,
magazine loaded to capacity, and safety on." - P. 41

There are any number of POIs on the web that detail different ways of making a shotgun cruiser ready in different agencies... there are some more linked or copied to http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=355528&page=7 if you want to poke around some.

lpl

 

[ScareyH22A]

Is it bad to keep the mag tube full? I heard it can deform the plastic on the shell.

 

[ReloaderFred]

What is the shotgun carry condition most often used by police departments?

In our department, the Model 870's were carried with a full magazine, chamber empty and off safe. When removed from the shotgun rack, and made ready for use, push the action release and chamber a round. If you have extra rounds, then replace the round in the magazine that was chambered.

Using the action release was taught, rather than dry firing, to release the action. Dry firing eventually leads to an accidental discharge or broken firing pin in the Model 870.

We've covered unloading in other threads, but you don't work them through the action........

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Fred Fuller]

Is it bad to keep the mag tube full? I heard it can deform the plastic on the shell.

If left alone for far too long, the pressure of the magazine spring can sometimes make shells bulge to the point they chamber with difficulty- or won't chamber at all. The answer is to shoot up the 'ready' ammo and replace it regularly. Doing that every several months or so will almost certainly keep you out of trouble.

lpl

 

[ScareyH22A]

^Thank you... but how long is too long?

 

[Fred Fuller]

The answer is to shoot up the 'ready' ammo and replace it regularly. Doing that every several months or so will almost certainly keep you out of trouble.



lpl

 

[Jack2427]

Lee has nailed HD down to a "T". Your weapon is just one part of a thought out system. Anyone who just buys a gun and does nothing else to secure his property is just begging for a problem. There are many things to consider, one of the most important is to retreat to a "safe" room-or not. I would suggest retreating to such a location where everyone else in the house will also gather. This gives you one BIG advantage; you know that anyone else in the house is not your family. There have been any number of tragedies where the weapon wielder did not know the location of all the good guys.
One other point, I have taught many hundreds of personnel how to clear or sweep a building with various weapons. Counting training and for real I have cleared several thousand rooms. The single thing I have learned from all this is: I will not do it alone, and would suggest than anyone else not do it alone. I will mount a static defense in a safe place where I can account for everyone else, and wait as long as necessary for help to arrive. I would no more think of advancing into an armed encounter alone than I would of jumping out of a three story window into the empty swimming pool. The reason? You are advancing into the unknown, and that is very frequently a fatal disadvantage. And you are leaving the rest of the family undefended. Not much of a problem for me because all that is left at home is my wife who is a Karate instructor when she is not chasing BG for a big city PD, and our 95 pound mutt with solid ivory teeth who is leery of most everyone whom he has not known for at least a year.
I am not saying that no one is skilled enough, just that unsupported room clearing is extremely dangerous. Unless you are living in a Pullman car, there are too many ways you can be blindsided, back shot, or otherwise inconvienced. When you find yourself safe-stay there.

 

[Howaido]

I think it alerts the intruder to your location and he blows your head off. I keep my shotgun loaded with a shell in the chamber plus 7 in the tube.

There is validity in this statement IMO.

I understand that PDs keep the chamber empty while having the shotgun in the cruiser and I understand the logic behind that. The needs of a police officer, in uniform, at a scene, are different than those of a homeowner IMO.

One of my worst case scenarios is an invader who is able to gain entry surreptitiously and who won't run away and change his underwear when a shotgun is racked.

I am considering that right now.

Despite the fact that I have two dogs, a well-lit exterior, good doors (two locked doors to get through to actually gain access regardless of which route is taken), hand-crank casement windows that can't be opened from the outside, etc., etc., I like to consider the worst case scenario, plan for it, and hope for something better.

I don't like the idea of having to rack one in notifying everyone in the neighborhood as to my location.

I don't like the idea of keeping a round in the chamber due to the drop problem.

I personally like the idea of being able to keep the gun an inch or so out of battery and ready it by quietly closing the chamber as opposed to racking the gun and letting said intruder know where I am at.

I am still kicking it around as I will have to drill it for problems and work with it before I actually start to do it, but I am leaning that way.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

You must have a one hell of a quiet neighborhood if everyone falls out of bed at 4 am on a rack sound.

Suppose someone did gain entry and is not crapping drawers or showing flight. In fact that intruder is inside your dwelling and advancing or actually predatory.

You are already in a fight. Either you are going to start making noise, or the intuder will start it for you.

The neighborhood will be awake VERY shortly anyway.

Regarding the ammuntion, the weapons are unloaded regularly and the ammuntion rotated as the weapons are cleaned (Not with any inside weapon at all of course) I unload all the ammo even before a simple wipe down.

I never dry fire weapon UNLESS there has been a misfire on the range. If I hear no boom, I wait a few moments, eject shell and chamber the next after clearing the chamber visually.

In combat a misfire is a simple rack to the next shell, if you have time. Nothing more than that click that really motivates the attacker to rapidly close the distance to you and your weapon with murderous intent.

I admire and applaud your desire to maintain a peaceful neighborhood but sometimes it's not always possible.

 

[ReloaderFred]

The biggest mistake people make in considering home defense scenarios is thinking the person breaking in is a calm, logical individual. That is normally not the case at all. They are either drunk, high on drugs, or pumped full of adrenaline, or all three. It's nothing like television or the movies, in most cases.

You're not dealing with a rational human being when confronting someone inside your home who has broken in, or is attempting to break in. If they were rational, they wouldn't have taken this road in the first place. They would be actually working for a living and not destroying their lives, and the lives of those around them, with a destructive lifestyle. Just about every burglar I ever arrested was an addict of one kind or another. They just don't think like calm, well adjusted humans do, so take that into consideration in your planning.

You can yell at them, rack shotguns at them, or even shoot at them, but if they're not cognizant of any of those actions, then you better be prepared to take the final action.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Beserkers. Disassembly required to halt unlawful actions.

 

[Howaido]

Waking the neighborhood was an attempt at a joke. Hardy har. However, racking one in is LOUD. Expect immediate action by any intruder which might not be running away-taking cover, bad intent focused in right your direction, etc.

This is a legit concern with making any noise. The loss of a tactical advantage, a reduction in safety.

Suppose someone did gain entry and is not crapping drawers or showing flight.

You can yell at them, rack shotguns at them, or even shoot at them, but if they're not cognizant of any of those actions, then you better be prepared to take the final action.

Every situation would require action based on the totality of the circumstances.

Right now, I am just trying to determine any possible negatives with keeping a round partially chambered, but chamber still not closed.

The only thing I can think of, without having worked with it, is a possible "fumble factor" with leaving the chamber not quite closed. Would it be too easy for the round to drop out, etc? Thing is, it requires, as we know, some substantial force to run the slide back to eject a round from the port.

Again, I will have to play with this (using dummy rounds) quite a bit, as well as with live rounds at the range, before I really know the pluses and minuses and whether or not it would work for me.

I would have to test it for reliability (will the round finish chambering EVERY time?) and other considerations. It seems that it would as the shell is already partially chambered, essentially already fed.

What about the increased possibility of foreign matter getting into the open chamber? It is this kind of stuff I need to knock around.