Hearing damage in defensive situations?

[Doug.38PR]

I was just firing a shotgun and .38 Spcl outdoors in the open this past weekend without ear protection. two shots from a shotgun and 6 shots from a .38 special total. BUT even then, my ears were ringing. In fact, just the first shot from the .38 special (standard 130 gr) gave me a sharp pain in my left ear. The SG blasts caused ringing in both ears for the rest of the day and the right ear had ringing for the following day too and.....(one more day) I think I can BARELY still hear in that ear what sounds like water running in a distant section of the house as the water runs through the pipes (this is not what I hear, but his is what the ringing sounds like in it's final stages)

How do you keep from having permenant or even temporary ear abuse in a gunfight (imagine if you are in an enclosed house or car)

 

[hso]

You can't.

You can only hope that the short duration high intensity noise will have only resulted in a temporarty threshold shift. Civilian shootings would be expected to be very short resulting in minimal exposure to damaging noise.

Shooting from inside a care would be more hazardous to your hearing than shooting inside a room which would be more hazardous than outside.

 

[knuckles]

Not to sound like a jerk but, I would think that if you are in a gun fight, protecting your hearing should be the least of your concerns. It's not reasonable to walk around wearing hearing protection at all times. I think that (assuming you are the average Joe) for the few gun fights you'll ever be in, your hearing won't be permanantly affected.

 

[Templar223]

With all due respect, your priority in a gun fight should be 1) leaving the fight (the 'run like hell option') or 2) stopping the gun fight as quickly and decisively as possible.

John

 

[sm]

hso
is correct.

Being Lucky helps too.

 

[RNB65]

There was a thread not too long ago of former military guys comparing how much hearing loss each of them had. Apparently, soldiers in combat rarely wear ear protection and they do suffer permanent hearing damage.

 

[Big Calhoun]

I've seen this question come up on several forums and have given it some serious thought. As a civilian, the best solution I came up with was ear plugs, attached with cords, that I keep with each firearm.

Granted, when the adrenaline is pumping, I may forget to put the things in. But I figured I had to at least try to find a solution as that is a concern for me.

 

[wdlsguy]

You could use a suppressed weapon, assuming they are legal where you live.

 

[RaetherEnt]

10% of my disability right now is from firing approximately 2500 rounds through my SAW (M249) in Panama back in '89. Constant ringing in my right ear for life. Makes it real hard to hear things...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Hopefully, Doug, you have learned a lesson. That is, shooting without hearing protection is a very bad idea, especially when you don't have to do it.

With all due respect, your priority in a gun fight should be 1) leaving the fight (the 'run like hell option') or 2) stopping the gun fight as quickly and decisively as possible.

There were cops at the North Hollywood Shootout (Bank of America robbery) who had on hearing protection. If you have it to use, why not use it?

We keep electronic muffs with our gear at home and use electronic muffs when investigating bumps in the night as not only do they add ear protection, but amplify one's hearing to be able to hear better than normal, hence to hear more than would be possible without the muffs. If something goes south, the muffs are already in place.

 

[GEM]

A classic example of why one should train and/or compete. A competent trainer or RO would have drilled it into one not to do such. Or at least stop after the first ouch.

 

[Colt]

It's not reasonable to walk around wearing hearing protection at all times.

There was a prof. at the college I attended that regularly wore clam-shell type hearing protection anytime he was outside. Even on the (relatively) quiet trip from class to class. He was a nutjob.

I never had a class with him, but one of my friends did, and he said the prof. claimed that since humans would never encounter in a natural environment the dB levels of the modern world, he felt it necessary to protect his hearing. Furthermore, he claimed that when "man freed himself of pointless technology, and returned to nature" he'd remove his hearing protection, ready to enjoy the benefits of protecting it all these years.

So I guess having 20 years of poor hearing while using the protectors is an even trade for post-apacolyptic auditory superiority?

Ladies and gentlemen, the tenured college professor. (don't get to close to the cage!)

 

[sicario103]

Doug.38PR is this the first time you shoot without hearing protection? Because I never wear protection when I'm at a outdoor range. I shoot alot and I can say that my hearing is fine. I never experienced what you have.

I don't use hearing protection because I figured since I won't be wearing it in a real life SD situation, wearing one while training would only impede you.

 

[Eleven Mike]

sicario103: never afraid of the flames.

On-topic: I have often heard that adrenaline has some sort of effect on the ears, such that shooters don't hear the report when they are in fear for their life and the ears do not sustain damage. Does anyone know whether this is true?

 

[wally]

Thomas A. Edison often credited his diligence and persistence in creating new inventions to the hearing loss he suffered as a child -- fewer distractions so he could concentrate on his work.

If you get a bad infection and get gentamicin antibiotics you may lose your hearing, but like with a SD shooting, it'd be the least of your worries. Problem One is living through the event. Combat too.

--wally.

 

[slzy]

when the old DI or gunny intoned "Iii CANnnn"T HEARrrr YOUuuu",he was not joking.

 

[hso]

On-topic: I have often heard that adrenaline has some sort of effect on the ears, such that shooters don't hear the report when they are in fear for their life and the ears do not sustain damage. Does anyone know whether this is true?

It's called auditory exclusion and is a response to fight or flight syndrom. It does nothing to protect the cillia inside the inner ear.

I don't use hearing protection because I figured since I won't be wearing it in a real life SD situation, wearing one while training would only impede you.

Please discontinue this training practice immediately. In a real life SD situation you will be subjected to noise from probably 3-12 shots. In your training sessions you are probably subjected to noise from 50-200 shots (at least). You are doing an oder of magnatued more damage in each training session than you are in your anticipated SD encounter. This is like saying you subject yourself to slashes from an attacker in each training session because you will be subjected to the same risk in an SD situation. Even those of us that train with knives do not use live blades in our daily training sessions.

 

[mljdeckard]

All growing up, I never used hearing protection shooting until I joined the army. Those of us who have been in recently know, the army is no longer giving out disability for hearing loss. It is YOUR fault for not using protection. (I am think there must be some provision for battle damage, as opposed to occupational negligence.

Since then, I've even convinced my old man that ear plugs don't put a dent in the experience. You only get one set of ears. Exceptions to this. In any defensive situation, I'm not going to ever attempt to reduce my hearing, I need all my senses to live. When I'm hunting big game, I'm not going to miss a shot because I stopped to put on hearing protection. But I don't plan on firing lots of repeated shots at the game either.

Having said this, I have been lucky. Working in the music business, I have known many guitarists who have tinitus, ant they tell me it REALLY sucks. It's the high-pitch stuff that tears your ears apart. A 100-watt Marshall guitar stack will do more damage than a 1000 Watt Ampeg bass amp stack. For many years, musicians used monitor cabinets to hear what they are doing on stage. The bad news is, they have to turn them up loud enough to overpower the natural volume of the drums and the house system. Now most musicians that play live a lot use in-ear monitor, which are basically ear plugs with tiny speakers in them. They can cut out exterior sound completely, and then only turn the monitor signal as loud as it needs to be. This way they save their ears over the long term, and don't have to subject themselves to the same bombardment the audience gets every night. (I saw Blondie a few years ago at a club, and they used them. I talked to Chris Stein after the show, and he said he really wished he had in-ear monitors thirty years ago.)

In 1995, I went to a Nine Inch Nails/Marilyn Manson concert at the Delta Center, which has notoriously terrible accoustics. (Rock acts have to cut the volume about in half or it is unintelligible.) The next morning, I took a physical, and the guy administering the test told me my hearing test was the highest score he'd seen there in months. I've dodged the bullet for this long, I'm not taking any more chances.

 

[mpmarty]

Even in the fifties we had ear plugs on the range at MCRD west as well as at PI.
When I was a cadre in small arms I wore big muffs with plugs inside the ears. I'm still 65% deaf in both ears from activities where I couldn't protect my ears during situations that involved loud noises.

 

[sefus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11M
On-topic: I have often heard that adrenaline has some sort of effect on the ears, such that shooters don't hear the report when they are in fear for their life and the ears do not sustain damage. Does anyone know whether this is true?

It's called auditory exclusion and is a response to fight or flight syndrom. It does nothing to protect the cillia inside the inner ear.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeap the auditory exclusion is what I found out when I asked about this after a particularily painfull unprotected SKS vs Old Pumpkin session one time. Its a psychological barrier but the actual physical damage still occurs so you might not get the ringing but the eventual hearing loss damage will still occur.

 

[Moondancer]

Auditory Exclusion Experiences

I hunt with handguns. I target shoot with handguns. I've shot a lot of rounds through handguns, from .22lr to .44 Magnums with an awful lot .38 Sp. and .357 Magnums over the years (going on 38 years now, wow!).

I have tinittus / tintinitus in both ears and have had for close to 20 years now. It sucks. I do not ever target shoot without hearing protection anymore, not even .22 shorts from a rifle, but the damage is done.

While deer hunting with .357 Magnums, I have absolutely no recollection of ever hearing the sound of the shots. No recollection of excessive / additional ringing in the ears afterwards either. I DO hear the shots using a .22lr out of a Ruger Single Six for squirrel, however. Go figure. My best guess is that the excitement of a shot at a deer triggers the auditory exclusion reaction where a squirrel just doesn't get enough excitement going for it to trigger.

Now, before anyone jumps me for what I just said, note that I did NOT say the shots during auditory exclusion didn't impair my hearing permanently, only that I had no PERCEIVED degradation at the time.

Clear as mud?

 

[Doug.38PR]

It's kinda strange, about 3 years ago we went hunting down around Goliad TX to our cousin's hunting lease (another wide open brush area of Texas) and if I remember right, none of us used hearing protection. Didn't seem affected by it then.

On the other hand, it wasn't really a problem the other day until we went back to the car (down a small hill) and started shooting kind of between the hill and the car. Sound I guess bounced off one or the other and into my ears.

After the first 38 shot I covered the left ear with my free hand. My other ear didn't hurt any because I had some skin grafted into the eardrum about 5 years ago to repair it after I busted a hole in it while swimming. I can hear fine out of it, but sharp sounds don't seem to hurt it....but after the pistol shots plus the shotgun blasts, it sure seemed to ring the longest even though I didn't feel an "ouch"

Boy that ringing and initially muffled sound sure wears you out.

Next time I will remember to bring the earmuffs.

 

[DerringerUser]

Funny, i made a thread about this awhile ago. Most of the responses were telling me that you shouldn't be worried about your ears if your life is at stake.

 

[44AMP]

Needs must....

I would rather be deaf than dead.

However, I do have a documented hearing loss (oddly enough in the frequency range of most women's voices), from military service. I never shoot without ear protection. Sometimes two levels of protection.

Having been exposed inside buildings, and vehicles, I can assure you it is not something you should voluntarily subject your health too.

In an emergency situation, you do what you must. But don't hurt yourself in parctice.

 

[Soybomb]

I don't want to point out the obvious but hearing damage is cumulative. If you're worried about your hearing don't shoot without protection unless you can help it (say self defense). If you wind up with hearing damage at least you'll be alive to complain about it. When its preventable though its really a shame.

sicario103 - Have you had a hearing test lately? We can't always tell when our hearing has been damaged on our own.