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Heavy 9mm with W231?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Rushthezeppelin, Oct 3, 2013.

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  1. Rushthezeppelin

    Rushthezeppelin Member

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    I'm thinking about messing around with some 147gr plated bullets (xtreme) to see if I get better accuracy than 124gr plateds and all I have for pistol powder is W231. I hear this isn't ideal necessarily as its a bit on the fast burning side of what you want for heavy for caliber bullets.

    First I guess, does anybody have any experience with this combo (I have a full size polymer CZ75 clone). Second what exactly are the effects of an unideal powder? Are they going to be louder subsonic loads than more ideal powders as I also want to twist these up for silencer demos that are often held in my area.
     
  2. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Unfortunately I have not seen load data for W231 and 147gr bullets in the 9mm anywhere. Hodgdon doesn't list any data and it's not even in the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook. They do list WSF which might not be hard to find since it's a shotgun powder. Sorry, I know it's not much help...
     
  3. Kurastduuks

    Kurastduuks Member

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    I would go with longshot if I were you...I've had excellent luck with 147's and that powder
     
  4. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Think of the 9mm 147 grain bullet as a bowling ball.
    Which it is compared to normal weight 9mm 115 & 124 grain.

    Think of trying to move a bowling ball with your hand.

    You could double up your fist and hit it as hard as you can. (Fast burn rate powder like W231)

    Or you can push it with your open palm. (Medium burn rate powder)

    Which one do you think will move the bowling ball faster & further without breaking all the bones in your fist??
    Or beating your gun to death.

    rc
     
  5. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

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    Like said above, a slower powder should be used. Longshot, HS-6 Autocomp, Power Pistol and the like will serve you well.
     
  6. gamestalker

    gamestalker member

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    I load all my 9mm with Longshot and absolutely love it. Longshot and 147's, or any other weight bullet for that matter, will knock your socks off! But this is coming from a reloader who loads and shoots nothing but full tilt jacketed. Definitely not for the light hearted hand gunner.

    Also a great powder for 38 spcl and .40 S&W, produces the same full house performance with those.

    GS
     
  7. mstreddy

    mstreddy Member

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    I'll check my manuals later so I can quote which one it came from, but I have been loading 147 Gr plated with 3.5 grs of Win 231. Nice shooting, nicely suppressed and has functioned flawlessly in Beretta M9, Glock 17, M1991A1, and an Uzi F/A. All of these were fired both with and without can. I also ran them in a Glock 26 and 19 with no issues.
    It might not be the best, but it's been good for me.
    As usual YMMV, Void where Prohibited and all that stuff.
     
  8. DoubleSawbuck

    DoubleSawbuck Member

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    here's some load data from one of those "one book/ one caliber" load books 2000 edition, use at your own risk:

    Loadbooks9mmLuger.gif

    I tried W231 w/ cast 147gr before and they were soft shooters but you really don't have much of a window to work with.
     
  9. oldpapps

    oldpapps Member

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    My response to question one - No. Question two / first part - as the name implies, not the best or close to it some cases.

    Question number two / second half - Don't think so. I use 231 for my wimp loading for .44 Mag. It works very well pushing 240 grain lead to 640/50 FPS. A wile back I was playing and loaded some rather heavy loadings of 231, these actually came very close to matching the velocities of my stiff loads with 2400 powder before I suffered more difficult extraction and backed off.

    The point is I was firing 6 stiff 2400 loads over my chronograph, followed with the heavy loads of 231, switching back and forth. My daughter complained about how loud 'those were', meaning the loads with 231. (I shoot some 30 feet down my driveway.) So, understanding you would not be pushing the envelope, the faster powder will still be loud.

    Over the years most every powder that was thought to be possibly usable has been tried. If 'it' worked well, that powder would have made it into the loading books. If 'it' didn't work out for what ever reason, 'it' would not. Humm, 147 grains bullets with 231 not listed for the 9MM, I wonder why?
     
  10. suemarkp

    suemarkp Member

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    Here's some data for Win 231. Also note that HP38 is the same powder, so if you can finds loads with it, it is the same.

    147gr Lyman cast roundnose, 4.0gr W231, 990 fps
    147gr Speer TMJ, 4.1gr W231, 957 fps (CCI 500 primer), 1.115 OAL, 27500 CUP (starting load was 3.5gr)
     
  11. DBR

    DBR Member

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    Ramshot Silhouette (Winchester Action Pistol) is an excellent powder for high pressure pistol loads. It was developed for Ammo like 38 Super and 9MM making 180 Power Factor at pressures in the 40,000-45,000psi range. It is IME very forgiving at high pressure. It behaves very well.

    Added: It meters like ball bearings and gives very consistent charges-another thing to consider with max loads.
     
  12. mstreddy

    mstreddy Member

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    OK, I have my manuals in front of me:
    Lee 2nd Ed. page 536
    147 gr lead Win 231 3.3 grs (865 fps) to 3.5 (905fps) @ 1.135"

    Lyman 49th Ed page 341
    147gr TMJ Win 231 3.5 grs (855 fps) to 4.1 (957fps) @ 1.115"

    Winchester 2003 Reload data manual
    147 gr lead CFP 3.3 grs (865fps) to 3.5 grs (905fps)
    *this is probably what Lee copied for their book.

    My own loads mentioned above followed the Lyman recipe as I had some 147 TMJ pull-downs from Jake @ RMR. I've loaded nearly 900 rnds with that recipe and have fired around 500 of them.

    And yes, Hogdon, et al doesn't currently list that load, but what I got from a conversation with one of their techs is that when they merged the companies (buyout) they were only under contract to test a certain number of loads/powder/bullet combos for each caliber. So, some powders, bullets, weights, etc got left out and are not listed in their current load data.

    As always, work up, check signs of pressure, etc... But you should be fine loading 147s with Win 231.
    If you are interested I can upload the 2003 Win manual as I have it in PDF version.
     
  13. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

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    My load for a plated 147 gr 9mm P
    147 gr Berry's plated RN.
    1.145" OAL.
    3.8 gr HP38
    898 fps in SA 1911-A1 5"
    921 fps in Colt 1991A1 5"

    Real reloads in real production model guns.
    I load Xtreme plated the same but have not yet chronographed them.

    I have to make power factor 125 plus a margin to allow for different guns. My SA is slower than my Colt, the Sig-Sauer (not chronographed with this load) is slower still.
     
  14. TfflHndn

    TfflHndn Member

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    mstreddy: Where do you see page numbers in Lee 2d Edition? My book has none, unless I've gone blind or crazy!? In the text sections, yeah, but in the tables I don't see 'em....
     
  15. Rushthezeppelin

    Rushthezeppelin Member

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    Ya I have Lee 2nd edition and the page you mentioned was the end of 38 special o_O

    Also mine just plain doesn't list 231 past 125gr lead.

    So those of you who use this combo aren't having any problems with wear to the gun? My clone has a pretty stiff slide spring, does that make a difference in wear?
     
  16. Nick93

    Nick93 Member

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    I load the 150gr Lyman cast bullet (#356637) with 3.7gr of W231 at a OAL of 1,13", mixed headstamp and Wolf primers. No signs of pressure and really accurate, gives me 915 FPS from a CZ shadow and 890 FPS from a Tanfoglio Stock II so you get a Power Factor of 136 ;)

    Hope this helps
     
  17. mstreddy

    mstreddy Member

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    My Lee book is "Modern Handloading - Second Edition" by Richard Lee, copyright 2003, with a 2004 print date.

    It does have page numbers throughout the data section on the bottom outside margins of each page. I'll scan the relevant pages and upload them tomorrow.
    I have not chronographed my loads, but I have fired them as mentioned.

    This is what the cover of my version of the book looks like:
    61%2BFW2JX03L.jpg

    And here is the Winchester 2003 manual
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9IOIw01PwjIUmVBZ1ZpcHNuclE/edit?usp=sharing
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
  18. Rushthezeppelin

    Rushthezeppelin Member

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    Ahhh mines just like yours except a faux sticker (printed on the cover) that says
    ALL NEW
    DATA
    IN AN
    EASY TO READ
    FORMAT
     
  19. mstreddy

    mstreddy Member

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    Rush, that version with the faux sticker is what I saw on Amazon. I guess mine is a little older. When I get home this evening I will scan/upload the relevant pages. But, you can rely on the Win manual I linked above as I'm pretty certain it came from there (exact same numbers).
     
  20. mstreddy

    mstreddy Member

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  21. Rushthezeppelin

    Rushthezeppelin Member

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    Thanks mstreddy. I think I'm going to pickup the SNS coated 147 FN when I get payed friday and I know have a load to work up. Really hoping I see accuracy difference cuz getting to throw a whole grain less per round will add up especially considering I have 2 lbs of 231 onhand. That and the SNS are cheaper than the 124 Berrys I'm slinging downrange right now.
     
  22. mstreddy

    mstreddy Member

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    That sounds good. Let us know how they work out for you.
    I currently load the 147s as above, and have been working some 124s as well. I set the 147s aside for when I want to play with the suppressor.
    I don't shoot competitively, so I'm not worried about the power factor and all that.
     
  23. Rushthezeppelin

    Rushthezeppelin Member

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    I am worried about pf but as long as im 865fps+ im fine, so ill probably throw a 3.4 gr charge (plus iirc that's as low as my smallest auto disk cavity throws with 231).

    Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III
     
  24. TfflHndn

    TfflHndn Member

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    My Lee book has the same cover, but says it is "revised and reformatted 2011." Guess they dropped part of the page numbering.
     
  25. mstreddy

    mstreddy Member

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    I guess those pesky page numbers were too difficult to print.

    Who knows why?

    Rush, let us know how it goes. And have fun!
     
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