Heller and M16s/ Heller vs. 922(o) (threads merged)

Status
Not open for further replies.

ctdonath

Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
3,618
Location
Cumming GA
Read in isolation, Miller’s phrase “part of ordinary
military equipment” could mean that only those
weapons useful in warfare are protected. That would be a
startling reading of the opinion, since it would mean that
the National Firearms Act’s restrictions on machineguns
(not challenged in Miller) might be unconstitutional,
machineguns being useful in warfare in 1939. We think
that Miller’s “ordinary military equipment” language must
be read in tandem with what comes after: “[O]rdinarily
when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were
expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves
and of the kind in common use at the time.”
...
We therefore read Miller to say
only that the Second Amendment does not protect those
weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens
for lawful purposes, such as short-barreled shotguns.

Thus they skirt the machinegun issue: common folk don't have them, therefore they are not protected - utterly failing to take into account that a tool cannot become common if it is largely prohibited before broad distribution is reached (to wit: every AR15 would likely have a "third position" if not prohibitively expensive, and subsequently prohibited outright).

This can be addressed in a subsequent case, but won't be a simple word-substitution approach.
 
One step at a time.

And, for the record, I half-expected to see THR's background being some flashing red-white-blue in celebration.
 
just means we need a better case that VERY SPECIFICALLY goes after 922 (o) with a good argument.

in other words, we need more good lawyers, more good plaintiffs and then to pick a good fight.

Heller cracked the door a little, now its our job to kick it in.
 
Heller and M16s (directly referenced)

(Page 54 and 55 of the court's opinion)

We also recognize another important limitation on the
right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have
explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those
“in common use at the time.”
...
It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be
banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely
detached from the prefatory clause. But
as we have said,
the conception of the militia at the time of the Second
Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens
capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of
lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia
duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as
effective as militias in the 18th century, would require
sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at
large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small
arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and
tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited
the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the
protected right cannot change our interpretation of the
right.

Could M16 rifles (and possibly other "assault" weapons) be construed as "not in common use" by the people?

My reading of that would indicate it leaves the door open for assault weapons bans and bans on military style rifles.

Please tell my I'm wrong.
 
After skimming through the opinion I'm pretty disappointed with the ruling in general. Affirming the meaning of the 2nd was never an issue really, only a made up fantasy in the heads of the likes of Handgun Inc and company.

It's great that the court has resolved this issue but they've left the other end of this wide open- what scrutiny is to be used when determining gun restrictions. The dissent was pretty clear about what level was NOT to be used.

Gun licensing, registration, and the old tricks are still in fair play based on what I read. Sad, sad, sad. :rolleyes:
 
You aren't wrong. Scalia said as clearly as humanly possible in that opinion that NFA weapons are going to remain highly regulated.

The only question is whether semi-auto rifles of a similar type are going to be protected by the "common use" test. I think a strong argument can be made that way.
 
The only question is whether semi-auto rifles of a similar type are going to be protected by the "common use" test. I think a strong argument can be made that way.

Every AR-15 you buy or build strengthens the argument for "common use".:)
 
Back up a few pages to 52-53 and they give this (bolding mine):

We may as well consider at this point (for we will have
to consider eventually) what types of weapons Miller
permits. Read in isolation, Miller’s phrase “part of ordinary
military equipment” could mean that only those
weapons useful in warfare are protected. That would be a
startling reading of the opinion, since it would mean that
the National Firearms Act’s restrictions on machineguns
(not challenged in Miller) might be unconstitutional,
machineguns being useful in warfare in 1939. We think
that Miller’s “ordinary military equipment” language must
be read in tandem with what comes after: “[O]rdinarily
when called for [militia] service [able-bodied] men were
expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves
and of the kind in common use at the time
.” 307 U. S., at
179. The traditional militia was formed from a pool of
men bringing arms “in common use at the time” for lawful
purposes like self-defense. “In the colonial and revolutionary
war era, [small-arms] weapons used by militiamen
and weapons used in defense of person and home were one
and the same.” State v. Kessler, 289 Ore. 359, 368, 614
P. 2d 94, 98 (1980) (citing G. Neumann, Swords and
Blades of the American Revolution 6–15, 252–254 (1973)).
Indeed, that is precisely the way in which the Second
Amendment’s operative clause furthers the purpose announced
in its preface. We therefore read Miller to say
only that the Second Amendment does not protect those
weapons not typically possessed by law-abiding citizens
for lawful purposes
, such as short-barreled shotguns.
That accords with the historical understanding of the
scope of the right, see Part III, infra.

which seems to say that if people have them, they're ok: i.e. what we have now can't be banned as it is in common use. NFA machine guns will have to be addressed separately as they can't be produced. Interestingly, short-barreled rifles/shotguns, suppressors and any-other-weapons could be made protected as if enough people have them, they would be "typically possessed". Might be a hard sell though - if enough people pay the tax to get them, then the tax goes away - who goes first?
 
Addendum: it is ironic that the majority talk about the "prefatory clause" of the second amendment as "The former does not limit the latter grammatically, but rather announces a purpose." but here use a separate clause to uphold the National Firearms Act.
 
I was thinking that the 86 MG ban would be unconstitutional, due to the fact that prior to that ban MGs were in common use. (Aren't there 300,000 MGs on the registry?) However, upping to licensing fees to $1000 per, as well as licensing ammo seems to be fair game with this decision.
 
What kind of case would that be?

Wouldn't someone need to be arrested for owning an illegal machine gun in order to bring a case forward? Who wants to do that??
 
I would sue the government for the right to import a norinoco m14 clone as a starter to chip away at the wall.

as a design it is not uncommon, but the manufacturer is specifically discriminated against important of a make/model that is already highly present.

how about a ak-47 clone? a million or more of them in semi-auto are in the country. the ban against the happy switch is arbitary at best, as the fundamental design is COMMON.


Yes, we have cases. We just need some good lawyers determined to pick the fight.
 
1st idea: Get a security officer for a large diamond mine to apply for a new M4. He/she gets denied. BUT the weapon is needed.

2nd idea: Have 4000 people apply for new M4's, based on the need for self defense of one's home. After they are denied, start a class action suit.

3rd idea: Have someone who already owns an MG, apply for a license to carry it in the home while living in DC. After it gets denied, sue.
 
This point is obvious but...

Right at that, TallPine.
What if certain classes of arms are not in "common use" BECAUSE of existing infringements (NFA, SBS/SBR, suppressors, etc.)!!!???!!!

This sounds like one step forward, two steps back to me.

The ruling left open the possibility for future cases to further clarify this decision since they specifically acknowledge they do not provide an exhaustive analysis of the 2nd Amendment.

Given the very narrow 5-4 "victory" and the likelihood that this particular set of jurists will hear another 2A case (not much), this does nothing to lessen my concerns for November.
 
I am thinking the ATF against against the accidentally full auto ar-15 could be used as a potential challenge. civilian m16's limited to semi-automatic fire but may share a great many parts could be used to prove that indeed, m16 family weapons are in VERY COMMON use.

Then you need someone to argue that non military use of the firearm is prevalant (hence the great many numbers of them) and seek to throw it out on that regard.

we have options here. we need to explore them.

What about the beretta 92f, the colt 1911a1 or the mossberg 590? using one or more of them as an example we could chip away at the militia/military use nonsense and then attack the commonality issue based on the frequency of semi-auto variants in the market.

this fight is just beginning, and we have plenty of material to work with here.
 
first the govt bans (well, highly regulates) a type of weapon so as to make them un-common, and then says that it isn't protected by the 2A because it isn't common ???

Yeah. I gots a problem wit dat.
 
Which is why we need another court case demonstrating the fallacy of that statement.

Baby steps, people. Baby steps.
 
then we can put forth another case arguing licensing, registration and fees for firearms is the same as a poll tax - that is a government fee on a protected constitutional right.

win that, and you break the registry.
 
Before getting too pissed off, though, remember that this cuts both ways.

"In common use at the time" also means "something other than a flintlock muzzleloader that was in use in 1787." Without some sort of "common use at the time" test, then all the 2nd Amendment would guarantee is some of the stuff you can order from Dixie Gun Works without an FFL, because that's all that "arms" meant in 1787.

Now a good argument can be made that the M16 is most certainly "in common use" if every soldier in the US is issued a variant of the thing. That argument will have to be made later, though.

Don't forget that yesterday we HAD NO Constitutional right to keep and bear arms for all practical purposes. Today we do.

Judicial tyranny? Oh yes. But I'm glad it went this way and not the other.
 
What kind of case would that be?

Wouldn't someone need to be arrested for owning an illegal machine gun in order to bring a case forward? Who wants to do that??



What about the guy current appealing his conviction for possession of MG when all he had was a malfunctioning AR?
 
I would say that there are enough evil black rifles in private hands that any future so called assault weapons ban would face all kinds of challenges because it bans a type of arm in common use. Literally every manufacturer is making some type of military styled semi automatic rifle. I think that, like handguns, they are arms in common use.

Jeff
 
Frankly, we came within one vote of losing on the individual rights argument. That surprised me as I gave more credit to the left-wing of the Court than I should have.

I thought that they would accept an individual right and argue that the restrictions were reasonable. Instead, every last one of them continued the ridiculous and thoroughly disproven collective rights argument despite mounds of evidence showing otherwise.

Scalia skillfully demolished them repeatedly on that point (and how could you not? It was an indefensible stupid argument). But the fact that they wouldn't abandon their indefensible, stupid argument even when confronted with overwhelming fact tells me that we have a LONG, LONG ways to go to get that Court to where it needs to be for a 922(o) challenge.

I don't find Scalia's reasoning here at all compelling; but the fact of the matter is that Scalia is not a boat-rocker to begin with and a plain interpretation would have meant losing a necessary vote most likely.
 
Agreed, Jeff.

Still, we should probably buy some more just to make sure they're common enough.:D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top