Heller denied again in DC - Duplicate threads merged

[Zoogster]

How could Heller and his attorney not know this?

Well an attorney is not going to tell him to break the law because it might get overturned.
A 1911 is an illegal machinegun according to DC law. He has to bring an illegal machinegun in to register it.

By citing him not bringing it as a reason to deny they are hoping to make that the issue resolved by the courts rather than being denied the ability to register an "in common use" semi auto.

They are trying to keep Heller from establishing that precedent.

 

[22-rimfire]

Von Breichenruchardt accused D.C. officials of "trying to find as many ways as they can to make the process as difficult and unattractive as they can," and predicted that the machine-gun ban will lead to more litigation. "Mayor Fenty promised us he would follow the letter and spirit of the law. He has done neither."

Says it all. I wouldn't have taken a 1911 to be registered either. Arresting Heller for possession of an illegal firearm would be real headlines.

 

[Intune]

ilbob

You can't very well obey the no gun law while you bring a gun to the police station.

Exactly what I was thinking! Wouldn't they arrest him on the spot for a weapon that failed to meet their narrow parameters?

A freakin' 1911 machine gun for cryin' out loud! C'mon people, do we really want these weapons in the hands of residents in a safe city like DC? What next, a thermonuclear Mossberg 500?

Please, stop the insanity. Do it for the children.

 

[battlecry]

Right, because you can bet the headlines will say MACHINEGUN, not Colt .45.

But, how DO you register a gun in DC?

You can't buy them there because there are no stores.
You can't buy them in MD or VA because you do not live there.
Isn't showing up with an actual firearm at a DC PD station a self-incriminating act in and of itself?

I'm confused.

 

[Rokyudai]

That's for sure Bogie,

I thought too if anyone brought something on the no-no list for registration, they would have saved the police time in confiscating it...what a crock!

Jiffy Pop is on the stove and I aint movin'.

 

[Intune]

A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading guns are outlawed...

As well they should be. One can only imagine the potential carnage inflicted by even more high-powered asses (donkey's) in DC!

 

[Macpherson]

I believe DC is offering a 6 month amnesty on currently unregistered handguns in the city, so bringing the gun in shouldn't be an issue, even if it doesn't meet their "guidelines". I would guess though that any guns coming in for registration that don't are probably confiscated, so Heller wouldn't have been arrested but his 1911 would have been confiscated, which would muddy up the legal waters with issues about illegal confiscation etc. Good play on his part; Mr. Gura certainly is the savvy legal operator on this case, thank God he's on our side

 

[brighamr]

From .cheese.' thread, I believe this is why Heller didn't bring his gun with him:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...071700700&pos=


Quote:
Newsham said if anyone shows up to register a semi-automatic pistol that fits the city's definition of a machine gun, police will confiscate the illegal gun but will not immediately arrest the owner. He said police reserve the right to investigate and eventually charge such an owner with violating the machine-gun ban. -emphasis mine

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Looks like D.C. plans to drag this out as long as possible. On the other hand, Heller & Co. seem to be moving very methodically in order to establish the rights one by one.

Note that Heller did not walk in there with a 17rd Glock and try to bust both the ridiculous machinegun definition and the semi-auto requirement at the same time. Instead he tried to register a pistol that holds one more round than a revolver - on a factual basis, D.C. is going to get the snot slapped out of it.

Not only that; but this one isn't going to make SCOTUS. The D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals will be the final stop here I predict - and the D.C. Circuit Court is likely going to make D.C. eat this (and more before it is over).

 

[Z-Michigan]

I agree with Bart - this is smart legal tactics, and will likely end at the DC Circuit. Kudos to Heller and his lawyer for being willing to do all this work.

I would like to see some kind of contempt-of-court proceedings against DC.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Are you freaking kidding me:banghead: DC seems to be a glutton for punishment. A 1911 practically defines "in common use". Not to mention the design is antique. DC is going to end up opening the floodgates to end a whole bunch of laws with this crap. The vision test and written test for what has been ruled a civil right? Why didn't they just ask all the black citizens to take a literacy test while they were at it and charge the $50 extra as a "self defense tax". They had a chance to actually make tough restrictions that would pass muster, instead they emptied a full magazine into their foot.

 

[Picard]

It is awesome how everything is playing out. Heller and his attorney are setting up D.C. for a checkmate.

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Well, now. "Heller: The Debacle", take II.

A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading guns are outlawed because they are grouped with machine guns.

I'm putting my money on the DC city council being "bottom loaded" by the Court.

Sheesh!

Ah, but I can't say this was unexpected. "In the end", though, the DC city council may push the Court far enough that the Court adds much more clarity to their ruling than the council would be happy with than if they just complied with the ruling. The Council shouldn't exist to begin with, and there are some in Congress who just might put an end to that debacle.

Woody

 

[Rugerlvr]

From the holding of the SCOTUS:

Because Heller conceded at oral argument
that the D. C. licensing law is permissible if it is not enforced arbitrarily
and capriciously, the Court assumes that a license will satisfy
his prayer for relief and does not address the licensing requirement.
Assuming he is not disqualified from exercising Second Amendment
rights, the District must permit Heller to register his handgun and
must issue him a license to carry it in the home. Pp. 56–64.

D.C. is now in direct violation of a SCOTUS order. How does one go about getting the court order enforced?

Note that the decision does not say "a" handgun, it says "HIS" handgun. Pretty specific if you ask me.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Right, because you can bet the headlines will say MACHINEGUN, not Colt .45.

But, how DO you register a gun in DC?

You can't buy them there because there are no stores.
You can't buy them in MD or VA because you do not live there.
Isn't showing up with an actual firearm at a DC PD station a self-incriminating act in and of itself?

I'm confused.

And that is PRECISELY why this is taking place, because this whole thing is a gigantic royal marsupial cluster frak on the part of DC and this furball needs to be combed out NOW.

 

[brickeyee]

It's all how you define things.
But the police are still ill informed.

District of Columbia Official Code 2001 Edition
Division I. Government of District.
Title 7. Human Health Care and Safety. (Refs & Annos)
Subtitle J. Public Safety.
Unit A. Firearms Control Regulations.
Subchapter I. General Provisions. (Refs & Annos)

§ 7-2501.01. Definitions.
Chapter 25. Firearms Control.
(10) "Machine gun" means any firearm which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily converted or restored to shoot:
(A) Automatically, more than 1 shot by a single function of the trigger;
(B) Semiautomatically, more than 12 shots without manual reloading.

[Emphasis added]

 

[IZinterrogator]

Instead he tried to register a pistol that holds one more round than a revolver - on a factual basis, D.C. is going to get the snot slapped out of it.

The funny thing is, S&W makes 8-shot .357 magnums. I want to see someone bring one of those in to register and watch a DC official's head explode out of confusion.

 

[anarchris]

bottom feeders don't like "bottom loaders"

Bottom loaders?

This whole debacle is a magnificent display of the arrogance of truly stupid people.
Fenty and company are blundering fools who will irritate the Courts and hand us victory after victory.

I propose we call up Fenty and tell him "keep up the good work"
& also we should all chip in and buy Mr Heller a Wilson 1911.

 

[ilbob]

i just read elsewhere that the police told him it was okay to bring in for registration.

Would not be the first time a cop told someone it was OK to committ a crime in the hopes of getting an arrest.

I have a feeling that some clever lawyer never mentioned Heller has a 45 along with his revolver(s). I am real glad that clever fellow is one of the good guys.

 

[mnw42]

I find the complete lack of firearms knowledge at this point somewhat shocking.

My Lee Enfield is clip-loaded and magazine fed.

A 1911 is magazine fed. Now if the law says "clip" in place of "magazine" and a court realized the actual definition instead of the colloquial use that would make that law useless and the fall out quite entertaining. I'll have to look.

It also looks like Heller is doing the smart thing and following the advice of his attorney.

 

[ZeSpectre]

It also looks like Heller is doing the smart thing and following the advice of his attorney.

and the chorus said "Amen"!

 

[Zoogster]

Would not be the first time a cop told someone it was OK to committ a crime in the hopes of getting an arrest.

I do not think they want to arrest him, that allows him to challenge the reason for the arrest (though it makes the stakes higher for him) just like actualy denying him the ability to register his 1911.

Instead they want to confiscate the firearm for being illegal without denying him the ability to register it.
They want to weasel thier way to insure the issue is something other than a semi auto being denied, especialy one that has been in more 'common use' than practicly any revolver, existing for a longer stretch of time in active use with the same caliber.

To actualy challenge an illegal law a person usualy has to violate and be subject to punishment or have some loss as a result of it to make a case to abolish the law.
You cannot just decide to challenge some law you do not like. You have to wait until someone breaks it and support them or break it yourself to challenge how constitutional it is. Of course if you lose then the law breaker is a criminal. That is really complicated with firearms because if you become a felon you are a prohibited person anyways, so you run into a circular logic. Cannot challenge unconstitutional gun law without breaking it, but cannot legaly own firearms if you break it unless you eventualy win against all felony charges.

Just like a person cannot challenge being denied a permit to carry for example on solid legal ground unless they are actualy denied and not just ignored. So many places choose to ignore rather than to deny.

It is a frustrating legal criteria.

 

[ctdonath]

He could have just registered a revolver and tried to play the Fenty denial of rights game. Instead he is resolving more issues.

No, this all started because he owned a 1911 (kept out-of-state) which he wanted to register and keep, unlocked & assembled & loaded, at home. He is NOT doing anything more than what he originally set out to.

He did not take it to the registration office precisely because, while he was assured he could take it there, there was every reason to believe they would not let it leave with him.

SCOTUS never addressed a "revolver vs. semi-auto" distinction. They said, in undeniable fact, that DC MUST issue Mr. Heller a permit for "his handgun".

Mr. Heller is NOT screwing around, he is NOT trying to extend this in any direction - he is MERELY pursuing what he set out to when he joined the Parker case.

The real perversion is that now DC is trying to turn the tables on Mr. Heller. The other Parker plaintiffs were ejected for lack of standing, that is they did NOT attempt to register anything, choosing instead to file grievance as the law clearly prevented them from doing something legal. Only Mr. Heller actually tried to register - and was inevitably denied - therefore he had standing. This time, they've added a twist: "bring us the handgun, and then we'll see about registering it" which they know will result in confiscation of contraband, and the registration will not be denied (nor approved) because there was nothing to register (gun? there was no legal gun) and thus Mr. Heller loses standing under the same principles which the other Parker plantiffs were shut up with.

 

[Igloodude]

I hope Mr. Heller treats that .45 as a precious family heirloom after the dust settles on this, because it's likely going to be the symbol of the reclaiming of the right to keep and bear arms in America.

Edit: though it was most folks' understanding here that he had tried to and was turned down registering his "duty revolver", a .38special or something like that. I guess we were wrong, or that .38 has been quietly pushed aside.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Well an attorney is not going to tell him to break the law because it might get overturned.
A 1911 is an illegal machinegun according to DC law. He has to bring an illegal machinegun in to register it.

By citing him not bringing it as a reason to deny they are hoping to make that the issue resolved by the courts rather than being denied the ability to register an "in common use" semi auto.

They are trying to keep Heller from establishing that precedent.

There is amnesty to bring in "illegal" weapons, so he wouldn't be breaking the law. I can understand why he didn't though.


On the note about the first gun he tried to register:


As I recall it was a 9 shot revolver.

He could have just registered a revolver and tried to play the Fenty denial of rights game. Instead he is resolving more issues.

He is using the 1911 because it is in "common usage", holds 7 rounds and the other reasons cdonath stated.

.