Help choose .38 +P load for snub

[Colden]

Hello everyone,

Finally registered on THR after a year of lurking. You have a great, fast growing forum here, and I wanted to thank you for allowing searches and image views without having to log in. That's nice.

On to my question:

I am trying to pick the best performing load to use in a S&W 642 j-frame revolver. This is to be carried as a backup. I am more or less convinced the load has to be something in 158 gr +P (the recoil is fine). That leaves me with only a few choices, which I have finally narrowed down to:

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/...t.asp?sku=66333
R38S12, Remington .38 +P 158gr LSWCHP

or

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/...t.asp?sku=66452
R38S14, Remington .38 +P 158gr LSWC (no hollow point)

The 642 has about 2" of barrel, so I am not expecting much--if any--expansion. Maybe I should stick with the LSWC, at least it has a flat nose. Of course, if this were a 3" or 4" barrel, I'd surely get the hollow point. Any suggestions are welcome.

And a second question, the 642 is rated for +P, but will it hold up if I fire 500 or 1000 +P rounds through it? It's not a steel frame, after all.

Thanks.

 

[dfariswheel]

The all time Grand Champion in .38 Special +P defense ammo is the Lead, Semi-wadcutter, Hollow point.

Especially in snubs.

Years ago, most police departments issued the old lead 158 standard load with round nose bullets.

This load came to be know to street cops as "The Widow maker", for the numerous failures to stop, and the cops killed because of it.

Finally, the police and Feds went to the +P with the lead hollow point and the failures to stop......stopped.

Over the years since, this load has variously been known in different locations as the FBI, Federal, LAPD, St Louis, Chicago, New Orleans, etc. load for the departments that used it.

The hollow point offers the best chance of expansion, especially from a 2" barrel.

Since your gun is +P rated, it should handle 500 to 1000 rounds without any problem.
I'd suggest practicing with standard ammo, shooting enough +P to stay current with it, and carrying it with the +P.

 

[Jim March]

First, you want the hollowpoint version.

Second, Remington's version of this load is reputed to be *slightly* hotter than the otherwise identical Winchester variant.

Third, we now have ANOTHER source for this load, and WHOA is it ever cheap:

http://www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm#ab

Georgia Arms has a good rep for fast loads (velocity wise, not shipping speed). I'd like to see some chony data from a snubby but otherwise, I see no reason to use these. And YE GODS look how cheap! (No, those aren't reloads, GA keeps those on another page entirely.)

 

[Colden]

What about these guys?

Remington .38 Special Lead Hollow Point, 158 Grain, Nickel Case, 1000 for $149.99. If this is factory R38S12, it seems like an awesome deal.

Here, but you have to scroll: http://www.kyimports.com/ammo.htm

Anyone have experience with KYImports.com?

 

[tbeb]

Use the +P 158 gr. LSWCHP.

 

[Brigrat]

http://www.ammolab.com/38spcl_-1.htm

No .38 reliably expands in denim tests +P or not. Most will expand in bare gelatin, but are quite unlikely to penetrate adequately. For this reason, many professionals reccomend a flat nosed full wadcutter. Even better would be one with sharp or rigid edges. Check ou the above link for test data. My recomendation would be one of the Village metal works loads, see here:

http://www.villagemetalworks.com/Frame.htm

In general, there is no advantage to the Village Metal works safestop in +p, as the standard pressure has more than adequate penetration. I would recomed the +p if I was using a ported barrel though, as the pressure difference should make up the pressure drop some say occur in ported barrels. This is just my 2 cents of course, and my opinion after reviewing all available data for myself. I recomend you do the research too, and make an educated decision. If you are in Evan Marshals camp, the 158+p is a "proven manstopper" If you are in the repeatable scientific research camp, then go with the non hollow point wadcutters mentioned above. The answer is, there is no answer. Good luck!

 

[James Bondrock]

What works well in four-inch (typical length for a service revolver) barrels will also work in a two-inch. At the lower snub velocities, the lead hollowpoint may or may not expand. Even if it does not, it will still make a cookie-cutter-like .38 caliber hole, rather than poking a pencil size hole that quickly closes up behind the bullet.

 

[Jim March]

I don't take that particular ammolabs test seriously.

Here's why:

1) 4 layers of denim? Granted, it's possible to get that "in the field" on a jacket seam area or whatever even in moderate weather...but not across all of the two or three or MORE shots you're going to be throwing at somebody. If you're dealing with heavy winter conditions, fine, you'll need more horsepower than a 38 snubbie so prepare accordingly.

2) No published velocity data. No data on barrel/cylinder gap either, and on a newer model S&W as they used, odds are vastly in favor of the gap being .006" or greater. Remember: S&W calls .010" "in spec" . Which means I have no clue from this how MY gun will do by comparison (.002" gap).

Upshot: this seems like less of a "test" to me than an attempt to prove that hollowpoints don't work in 38 snubbies. Well sorry, that's crap. They DO work often enough to be useful when you pick good loads and a good gun.

 

[Brigrat]

I certainly have taken into account the things that you mentioned in the above post, however; there is a reason many major law enforcement agencies have gone to full wadcutters over the years in BUG's, including San Diego PD, NYPD, and others. In the standard FBI ammo tests, which include 4 layer denim, 38 snub loads do not reliably expand. This is not completely unknown to the industy, as Speer is just about to release a 38+p round designed to meet the FBI standards out of a snub nosed revolver, since none of there current loads seem to be able to. Like I said, do the research, and make a decision, don't take anyones word for anything, particular ones opinions about ammo, it is your life that depends on it.

 

[tbeb]

Brigrat or anyone,
Do you know when the NYPD used .38 special wadcutters for bugs? (Was it before they used hollowpoints?)

 

[JShirley]

Jim,

Sorry, new pistol only ammo is here: http://www.georgia-arms.com/power.htm

You will notice that some of the ammo on the page you gave specifies New. New ammo is about 30% more expensive for the .38 special, still very reasonable. (Not that I wouldn't feel comfortable using a GA reload in a wheelgun. I would, and plan on doing so, when I get my Model 65.)

John

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. My choices for self-defense ammo are available via the link below. The .38 snub is listed as well.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/SelfProtectionLoads.htm

Best.

 

[Jim March]

John: whoops, I missed that.

I would assume one could ask GA for that load in new cases though.

Most wadcutters are loaded LIGHT - target grade. NOT my idea of a good time for defense, regardless of shape. So ya, if you're going to go that way, the Village Metalworks ammo makes sense.

But...you know, a 158 LSWC-HP +P that doesn't expand isn't much worse of a shape than a full waddy. And if your gap is tight, the barrel is clean and the damnthing picks up a tailwind it might just expand .

 

[JohnBT]

I, and my friends too for that matter, have been buying Georgia Arms ammo for years at the every-other-month gun shows here and have yet to have a problem with any of their ammo - new or reloads.

John

 

[45crittergitter]

Here is a partial list I have compiled. % is percent Sanow/Marshal one shot stops; s = Sanow estimate, a = actual stats, f = Fuller computerized estimate. Other numbers in ( ) are the load number or the Strasbourg goat test incapacitation time. All of list is from 2" barrel.

1. COR-BON 158 gr. LHP +P+ (s80%) 1000/932a fps (barely +P+, made for 2")
2. COR-BON 115 gr. Sierra JHP +P+ (32,000 psi!)
3. WIN 158 gr. LHP +P (a67%) 890 fps
4. FED 158 gr. LHP +P (38G) (a67%) 890 fps
5. FED 158 gr. LHP NYCLAD +P (P38G) 890/806a fps
6. R-P 125 gr. SJHP +P (a67%) 945 fps
7. R-P 158 gr. LHP +P (a65%) (15.52) 890 fps
8. COR-BON 125 gr. JHP +P 1125 fps
9. FED 125 gr. JHP +P (38E) (a65%) 950 fps
10. FED 129 gr. HYDRASHOK +P (a65%)
11. FED 129 gr. HYDRASHOK (a65%)
12. CCI 125 gr. JHP +P (a64%)
13. CCI 125 gr. GD +P (a64%)
14. R-P 125 gr. GS +P (a64%)
15. FED 147 gr. HYDRASHOK +P+ (a64%)
16. FED 125 gr. LHP NYCLAD +P (P38N) (a64%) 950 fps
17. FED 125 gr. LHP NYCLAD (a63%)
18. WIN 125 gr. JHP +P (a63%) 945 fps
19. R-P 95 gr. JHP +P (a60%)
20. WIN 110 gr. SILVERTIP (a52%) 945 fps
21. FED 158 gr. LSWC +P (a49%)

 

[Brigrat]

We have now been stopping powered!!! Let the battle begin. Any body got some statistical experience???

 

[Colden]

Please, not on my first thread here!

As you see in my original post, I am seeking advice in choice strictly between two listed types of loads, both 158gr +P, a LSWCHP or a LSWC. The choice is not obvious to me due to the short barrel of the snub.

I sincerely appreciate the posted thoughts regarding the issue, and please let's not let this go off-topic.

 

[Penman]

Colden,
If the LSWCHP does not expand, then you're no worse off than if you were using the LSWC. The HP load has established a good record, and is my preference for a .38 Spl load.

 

[Colden]

I understand the apparent logic in expecting the LSWCHP in its non-expanded form to behave similarly to the LSWC load, and that there does not seem to be any point in asking this question in the first place, but what really prompted this thread is some data suggesting the wadcutter's flat nose and "sharp" edges may create a larger tunnel, perhaps with better penetration through barriers and lesser chance of deflection than the equivalent non-expanded HP round.

Basically, this data almost made the semi-wadcutter projectile appear more desirable than a non-expanded hollow point, and I was hoping for more clarifications on this matter.

 

[cratz2]

Here's my extremely simplified take on .38 snub ammo performance:

If you have to fire one round of any ammo from a .38 snub into a large fellow wearing a t-shirt, a flannel shirt and a denim jacket, I wouldn't expect him to drop like a ton of bricks. But I would suspect he would be hurtin' just a bit.

If I were expecting to be shooting through some sort of barrier, I would probably lean slightly towards a 158 Gr LSWC bullet. If I was expecting to fire directly into the bad guy, I would like a 158 Golden Saber loaded to +P pressures. I haven't seen any of them recently though I haven't been looking extremely diligently.

If I was carrying a 38 snub as a primary - which I've only done on very few occasions though I do have a new one I might carry from time to time - I would ideally carry the gun with the first three rounds of the Golden Saber and two rounds of LSWC just in case. I don't expect the Golden Sabers to expand, but I think their slightly sharper than average leading edge might be a slight benefit.

 

[cratz2]

Ooh... and as far as putting 1,000 rounds of +P through any aluminum/scandium/titanium framed snub... I wouldn't do it. I'd practice with standard pressure stuff and after putting 200 or so rounds of your +P carry load of choice (just to make sure nothing weird happens with them) I'd limit myself to maybe 10 or 20 rounds per month of the hot stuff.

 

[tbeb]

Here's an actual shooting, as told by a police officer, that I just read about at another gun forum.

Gun was an older Colt Agent (Barrel length wasn't mentioned. I don't know offhand, but did this even come with 3"barrel?). Ammunition was Rem. 158 gr. LHP+P. Victim was hit twice in upper chest. Bullets expanded to .55" and .57" and they were found in back part of torso.

 

[James Bondrock]

Gun was an older Colt Agent (Barrel length wasn't mentioned. I don't know offhand, but did this even come with 3"barrel?)

If it was an Agent, I am sure it was a two-inch. Some Detective Specials were made with three-inchers, but never the Agent, TTBOMK. That's pretty good expansion and penetration! What was the range?

 

[tbeb]

James,
(My info also says the Colt Agent has a 2" barrel.) I do not know the range. Police officer did say, "Originally thought it was a carjacking, but it was a hand to hand that went bad." As far as what the victim was wearing, he only said "down covered".