HELP for newbie!

[denver den]

I have owned a Pietta .36 caliber pistol which I believe is an 1858 New Navy model for 15 years and have never fired it. With the times being what they are, I've begun to think I'll get it out for a home protection weapon. I am totally confused about powder types and load amounts. My questions are:
1. Is the unopened Pyrodex powder still useable?
2. How much of the fffg do I use? I have a brass loading tube that has numbers from 0 thru 12, and three different owners manuals that all say different amounts, one that came with the gun, one from Cabelas included in the box, and the Pietta website owners manual!
3. Can I preload the gun, and if so how long will it stay before firing?
4. Youtube has people using patches and others that don't.Is it okay not to use them with Pyrodex?
I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on, but don't want to be a bother. Thank you in advance for the help and be safe. denver den

 

[Johnm1]

Jack is correct. The black powder forum here is the best place to find the audience you are seeking.

I'll let the experts direct you to the best information but keep in mind that black powder is different than smokeless powders found in modern cartridges. Black powder requires that there be no space between the projectile and the powder charge.

I'm sure you will get several opinions that black powder firearms are not really suitable for self defense. My thought is that any firearm is better than no firearm. You won't be able to speed load a muzzle loader, but I suspect 6 shots of .36 caliber ball at 700 - 1200 FPS will have a deterrent effect. Be safe, learn the firearm no matter what it is.

 

[entropy]

Sounds like you have an 1851 Navy.

1. Is the unopened Pyrodex powder still useable?

Yes.

2. How much of the fffg do I use? I have a brass loading tube that has numbers from 0 thru 12, and three different owners manuals that all say different amounts, one that came with the gun, one from Cabelas included in the box, and the Pietta website owners manual!

If the frame is brass (gold colored) use a maximum of 20 grains of FFFG. If steel-framed (Black or rainbow colored) you can go to 25 grains. Reduce the Pyrodex by 10%.

3. Can I preload the gun, and if so how long will it stay before firing?

This is a harder one to answer, as there are no set answers. If in a dry climate, you could keep it loaded for much longer than a humid climate. Discharging, cleaning, and reloading at least once a month would probably be a safe bet.

4. Youtube has people using patches and others that don't.Is it okay not to use them with Pyrodex?

Only if you provide another method of preventive chain-fire. Crisco or one of the products made specifically for this applied over the ball to provide a seal is one method, and under the ball lubed felt wads are another. I prefer those myself. NEVER load a cap & ball revolver without providing some method of preventing a chain-fire! You Tube also has lots of idiots on it.

 

[.38 Special]

If by "patches" you mean actual thin cloth patches that fit around the ball, then those really aren't ever appropriate for a revolver. If you mean thick wads, which often are placed between the powder charge and the ball, then no, you don't absolutely have to have them. I will disagree with Entropy above by stating that they have nothing to with the prevention of chain fires but rather are to lubricate the powder fouling and keep it soft so that it does not interfere with the functioning of the gun. If you do not intend to fire the gun more than six times, then you can get away with not using them.

The subject of chain firing - where more than one chamber fires at a time - is a contentious one, for what it is worth, and unlikely to be settled here. At least it will give us something to do for the next few weeks, though.

 

[denver den]

Thank you all very much! I'm still confused I'm afraid about the grams of powder. The numbers on my tube only go to 12, and by the looks of it a full tube would never fit in one of the chambers. Even the Pietta web site calls for 9-12, but that is also a full tube! Maybe I ought to just get my baseball bat back out before I blow myself up! denver den

 

[entropy]

That one is graduated in 10 grain increments, so 12 is 120. That is a stout rifle load. The 20 grain max. I mentioned would be '2' as measured in that powder measure. (which is really for rifles.) The reason that I said 10% less for Pyrodex is the powder measure is volumetric, that is, it is measured by the volume of black powder, but Pyrodex is denser than BP, so start with less. On a brass framed 1851, don't go past 15 grains (halfway between '1' and '2' ) on that measure with Pyrodex.

 

[Malachi Leviticus Blue]

1. Is the unopened Pyrodex powder still useable?

Maybe

How old is it?
Are you sure it's never been opened?
Real Black Powder doesn't really have a shelf life.
Muzzleloaders that have been loaded for a couple hundred years have fired just fine.
Plenty of folks have had trouble with old pyrodex.
I would test fire it to see how it works before I would consider it good to go.

Don't underestimate the importance of well fitting caps.
ill fitting caps can fall off, and or cause jams and or miss fires.

 

[skeeterfogger]

Pyrodex "P" works best for me.
#10 primers.
A 9mm case is sufficient for 36cal charge.
Is your pistol a full frame or open top frame?
Full frame, Remington. Steel or brass?
Half frame, Colt. Steel or brass?
Over powder wad optional.
Clean up, soapy water. Dry and light oil.
Pure soft lead projectiles only.

 

[denver den]

That one is graduated in 10 grain increments, so 12 is 120. That is a stout rifle load. The 20 grain max. I mentioned would be '2' as measured in that powder measure. (which is really for rifles.) The reason that I said 10% less for Pyrodex is the powder measure is volumetric, that is, it is measured by the volume of black powder, but Pyrodex is denser than BP, so start with less. On a brass framed 1851, don't go past 15 grains (halfway between '1' and '2' ) on that measure with Pyrodex.

Sounds like you have an 1851 Navy.
Yes.



If the frame is brass (gold colored) use a maximum of 20 grains of FFFG. If steel-framed (Black or rainbow colored) you can go to 25 grains. Reduce the Pyrodex by 10%.



This is a harder one to answer, as there are no set answers. If in a dry climate, you could keep it loaded for much longer than a humid climate. Discharging, cleaning, and reloading at least once a month would probably be a safe bet.

Thank you! I think I get it now. Sorry to be so dense. denver den


Only if you provide another method of preventive chain-fire. Crisco or one of the products made specifically for this applied over the ball to provide a seal is one method, and under the ball lubed felt wads are another. I prefer those myself. NEVER load a cap & ball revolver without providing some method of preventing a chain-fire! You Tube also has lots of idiots on it.

 

[denver den]

Pyrodex "P" works best for me.
#10 primers.
A 9mm case is sufficient for 36cal charge.
Is your pistol a full frame or open top frame?
Full frame, Remington. Steel or brass?
Half frame, Colt. Steel or brass?
Over powder wad optional.
Clean up, soapy water. Dry and light oil.
Pure soft lead projectiles only.

Thank you. What is a 9mm case?

 

[entropy]

An empty cartridge case for 9mm Luger. skeeterfogger, this is his only gun, I don't think he has any 9mm brass laying around.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

denver - Get a shotgun. Learn to use it. Call it a day.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Denver Den,
Let's start from the top.
Whether it's Pyrodex or one of the other black powder substitutes, or actual Black Powder, it is measured out in "Grains"...which is a very old system of measurement. Don't confuse this with grams, as grams are VERY different. "Grains" also does not refer to the individual granules/particles of powder. It's an actual, antique weighing system.

As for your Pyrodex, shake the container with the lid on and listen. Does it sound like sand inside, OR is it solid and you can't hear anything move? If it's loose, it is probably still good. If it's solid, or has big clumps stuck together, it's probably bad.

Now let's talk about your gun.
Does it look like (A)


Or does it look like (B)


Either way they load the same, but just curious.

One of the replies mentioned trying to find a spent 9mm shell casing as a measure for your powder. You should look at the following video to understand how to load and fire your revolver.


In the video he uses a pistol flask. He doesn't show you how he operates it. Use the cartridge case. This is what they mean when they say 9mm case


LD

 

[whughett]

Too much information fellows. Pour powder in a chamber until it looks half full or a little more. Ram a ball down as far as you can. Smear crisco across the top of the ball. Cap. It’s charged and loaded.
Even the crisco part is debatable. But in the event you do fire it the grease will help with cleaning the revolver later.
And if you do fire it be sure and clean it with warm soapy water.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

Mr. Denver den...im thinking that like most of us here you are stuck at home or atleast have more idle time. Use this time to research online...read forums and watch videos and also handle that gun for days and get comfortable with it. Get used to how the grip feels...its heft..pointing/aiming it. Get used to cocking it, putting it in half cock, and dropping the hammer slowly. No sense in loading and using a gun for protection if you choke and pull the trigger and no bang...because you forgot to cock it or only cocked it to half cock. I held my gun and figured the ins and outs of the gun for months before i ever shot it. But by that time i was comfortable with all aspects of the gun. Just use this time wisely...and lots of great info here. Btw you can not over load these guns with pyrodex or black powder...or any other substitute so dont worry about over loading it. Just stay away from smokeless powder...even if in a pinch and its all you got.

 

[merwin]

Your statement indicates you are using a Remington clone. These are the stronger black powder revolver designs. Ans 1: I acquired a mostly full bottle of Pyrodex pistol powder in 2000. I know it had been sitting around for three years. I ran out of fff back in 2016 and finally tried it on the range with no problems for my 1860 clone. Later, I loaded a box of .45 cases for my Bisley and they worked without problems. Ans 2: You can use as much fff that will let you seat the ball. If the ball won't clear the forcing cone, lighten the load. Black powder meas. is by 5 grains, not .5 grains. Ans 3: In my innocent youth I always had a loaded gun in my car. Sometimes it was my .31 1849 pocket pistol. The longest I ever went without firing off my condition one was two weeks - but it worked without incident - five rounds, five telephone poles. Ans 4: I have NEVER seen anything in print that indicated the use of patches with muzzleloading revolvers. Pyrodex and black powder both smoke like hell. Both have similar pressure curves. Both are a pain in the ass to clean. BUT black powder is treated differently by transportation and storage laws; Pyrodex can give you an extra choice although it is less forgiving of ignition issues (ie: flintlocks, etc.). Hope this was helpful in cutting through the mystique. Good luck -

 

[grter]

"With the times being what they are, I've begun to think I'll get it out for a home protection weapon"

I would not advise that,. If possible get a modern firearm. Muzzle loaders are very finicky and require work, practice, and experience to get them functioning to full potential and even then are not as practical and safe as a modern firearm when it comes to self defense. The technology is 160 years old.

1. Is the unopened Pyrodex powder still useable?

Maybe if it's not too old or has not been exposed to moisture. Pyrodex has a shelf life as do most of the substitutes and will get ruined with moisture. Real black powder soaks up moisture like a sponge but if kept in a dry uncontaminated state has been known to work just fine even after 100 years maybe even more?

2. How much of the fffg do I use?

Black powder is measured by volume not weight although the weight in grains is calibrated to be about the same in volume of black powder but the substitutes do not. For example pyrodex is much lighter in weight than black powder but is measured using volume and that volume is about the same as black powder despite the fact that that same volume weighs less.

The good new is you can't possibly stuff too much black powder in a cap and ball cylinder to blow it up but if you overload it frequently you will eventually shoot your gun to a loose rattling worn out piece of junk. I would look up at the recommended loads for a .36 caliber cap and ball revolver but it's usually in the 16 to 20 grain range. Remember measure by volume not weight.

Make sure your ball is seated firmly on top of the powder air spaces can mean an explosion.

Don't ever ever use any modern smokeless powder because it can generate enough pressure to blow your gun up to smithereens and you don't want to be anywhere near it if it does.

3. Can I preload the gun, and if so how long will it stay before firing?

If the inside is clean and dry (no moisture at all) with black powder a very very long time. With pyrodex and all the other subs I don't really know but they do become duds over time from what I read. One would think a more modern black powder substitute would be better but I guess not.

Lubricated wads are great for firing at the range and when you know you will be firing soon but leaving a greased wad on top of a powder charge for a long period of time is a recipe for hang fires (delay in ignition), misfires, squib loads (bullet stuck in barrel due to low power charge,) and duds. The moist lube on the patch will over time make the powder moist. Make sure your nipple holes are clean and dry too.

Tight fitting balls (or conicals {bullet shape}) and well fitted snug caps go a long way in preventing any chain fires so do your best to do that when you load.

And Again if you want to defend yourself get a modern cartridge firearm if you can.

 

[sspierce8]

Do you have balls? I mean the lead type? You’ll likely need .375 balls, 20 grains fffg black powder, and probably don’t need a wad if you’re going to leave it loaded for a while just for home protection. Number 10 caps. You’re good to go. Keep in mind if you do shoot it, clean it immediately with dawn and hot water. I put mine in the oven on the lowest setting for around 30 minutes to dry out well. Then oil it down real well. I use a product called fluid film. Black powder is very corrosive once fired, but not before fired.

 

[stephen cockerham]

I have owned a Pietta .36 caliber pistol which I believe is an 1858 New Navy model for 15 years and have never fired it. With the times being what they are, I've begun to think I'll get it out for a home protection weapon. I am totally confused about powder types and load amounts. My questions are:
1. Is the unopened Pyrodex powder still useable?
2. How much of the fffg do I use? I have a brass loading tube that has numbers from 0 thru 12, and three different owners manuals that all say different amounts, one that came with the gun, one from Cabelas included in the box, and the Pietta website owners manual!
3. Can I preload the gun, and if so how long will it stay before firing?
4. Youtube has people using patches and others that don't.Is it okay not to use them with Pyrodex?
I'm sure I'll have more questions as time goes on, but don't want to be a bother. Thank you in advance for the help and be safe. denver den

my powder has stayed good for years as long as it doesn't get wet, load 15 grains of pyrodex to 20 grains a greased felt wad the ball then cover end of cylinder chambers with Crisco lard then cap off then rest hammer between chambers or on an empty chamber if your pistol doesn't have the notches between chambers. that should be good for a couple of months after that fire it at targets the ground or whatever, clean pistol and reload if you still need it I do mine the exact way and have no problems

 

[Flintlock Snob]

Powder-ball-felt wad on top of the ball with no lube. A BP gun can fire after being loaded for years or decades or even more. That said, the reliability of it firing for sure decreases with time. If its home defense, It may not be what you want. If you need it in your house, you need to be 99.9999999 percent sure it will fire when needed. I would get an inexpensive .38 or something.

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I think cap and ball can be utilized great for home protection....buuuuuut thats only if you know what your doing and are experienced with the gun and also that the gun is tuned to fire EVERYTIME and all the little quirks such as cap jamming prevention has been taken care of. I wouldnt use my guns stock fresh out the box for home protection...i always immediately put in a 2 part wire spring set up to replace the flat bolt/trigger spring, smooth the cam and all rough edgest and friction points as every gun is different, also add atleast a cap post and hammer sheild. After testing and im confident it will fire everytime and not jam...then i find it fit for MY home protection

 

[skeeterfogger]

Firing a bp gun in house would be only if it was last resort. Besides malfunction probabilities the smoke screen will hamper targeting and the possibility of burning house down.