I have a Webley 455 Mk"IV",and i like to know when its make. And i have just found some empty brasses to reload, and i have found a reloading table from a reloading book,but the table was made for Webley Mk"VI". I do know that mine is som years older and i like to know if i can fire smokeless powder in it,for example Vihtavuori N320. I dont want to shoot it if im not 100% sure.
Help me about my Webley 455.
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mainmech48
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I'd suggest finding an identification table of British proof marks and checking to make sure that yours has the proper 'Nitro" proof stamps on it. Someone here may be able to help you with that, if you can post some photos. An approximate date of manufacture should be indentifiable from those, too.
Without examining it for condition personally it's not a good idea to make blanket assertions about the safety of any antique firearm of any make. When the possibility exists that the arm in question may not have been proofed for smokeless ("nitro") loads, it's downright dangerous.
Your safest course, IMO, is to have your revolver examined by a knowledgable professional and have them first confirm that it is sound enough to be fired before undertaking any actual use.
Should they approve its condition, and find that it was indeed proved with smokeless loads, then published loading data from current manuals should be okay in it.
As an added precaution given its age and unknown history I'd strongly suggest sticking to "starting" charges and using due caution when assembling any ammunition. A good way to get a "feel" for what safe loads should be like would be to buy a box or so of factory .455 ammunition from Fiocchi and try those first. It's fairly expensive, but it is the single source that i know of for new production ammo in this caliber. FWIMBW, the cases are excellent for reloading and should last quite a while with mild loads.
Hope this is of some help to you.
Without examining it for condition personally it's not a good idea to make blanket assertions about the safety of any antique firearm of any make. When the possibility exists that the arm in question may not have been proofed for smokeless ("nitro") loads, it's downright dangerous.
Your safest course, IMO, is to have your revolver examined by a knowledgable professional and have them first confirm that it is sound enough to be fired before undertaking any actual use.
Should they approve its condition, and find that it was indeed proved with smokeless loads, then published loading data from current manuals should be okay in it.
As an added precaution given its age and unknown history I'd strongly suggest sticking to "starting" charges and using due caution when assembling any ammunition. A good way to get a "feel" for what safe loads should be like would be to buy a box or so of factory .455 ammunition from Fiocchi and try those first. It's fairly expensive, but it is the single source that i know of for new production ammo in this caliber. FWIMBW, the cases are excellent for reloading and should last quite a while with mild loads.
Hope this is of some help to you.
mainmech48
Member
Some additional photos would be helpful. Any markings on any side of the barrel and mainframe could give a clue, as would any inside of the cylinder 'window'.
For a good deal of its history, sidearms were individually purchased by officers from a list of approved makes, models and calibers rather than being ourchased and issued by the Crown.
The lack of discernable British military proofs , civilian proofs or common identifying markings usually found on on military owned pieces or weapons which saw actual military service in the Empire (EG: the "Broad Arrow", military acceptance and/or unit marks) leads me to believe that this is likely to be a revolver made for civilian sale.
None the less, there should be at least a couple of Crown proof markings somewhere on it. If it was made at some time when government proof testing on each individual weapon was not legally required, my guess is that an expert appraisal would be required to determine when exactly and by whom it was made and whether or not it would be safe to fire with anything but black powder loads.
For a good deal of its history, sidearms were individually purchased by officers from a list of approved makes, models and calibers rather than being ourchased and issued by the Crown.
The lack of discernable British military proofs , civilian proofs or common identifying markings usually found on on military owned pieces or weapons which saw actual military service in the Empire (EG: the "Broad Arrow", military acceptance and/or unit marks) leads me to believe that this is likely to be a revolver made for civilian sale.
None the less, there should be at least a couple of Crown proof markings somewhere on it. If it was made at some time when government proof testing on each individual weapon was not legally required, my guess is that an expert appraisal would be required to determine when exactly and by whom it was made and whether or not it would be safe to fire with anything but black powder loads.
Jim Watson
Member
Mk IV came out in 1899, made until 1914.
The British had been loading .455 with Cordite smokeless since 1894.
I would not go beyond handbook starting loads.
The British had been loading .455 with Cordite smokeless since 1894.
I would not go beyond handbook starting loads.
KiltedClaymore
Member
hordany metric makes .455 webley ammo. start with that. pull the bullets and mesure their powder charge. use theat charge in your reloads.
Bart Noir
Member
Kilted, there's powder and then there's powder. Unless you know exactly what gunpowder is in the round you pull apart, it is risky to just load the same amount of any other type of gunpowder. You could get much more pressure with some other gunpowder, for the same volume or weight.
I would not be following your advice for anything except blackpowder.
Bart Noir
I would not be following your advice for anything except blackpowder.
Bart Noir
Jim Watson
Member
Cordite was one of the first smokeless powders.
Hasn't been made in years.
Nothing on the market today quite like it.
Use published tested load data for the actual powder you can get and don't worry about what they had a hundred years ago.
Bart Noir is right, KiltedClaymore is wrong.
Hasn't been made in years.
Nothing on the market today quite like it.
Use published tested load data for the actual powder you can get and don't worry about what they had a hundred years ago.
Bart Noir is right, KiltedClaymore is wrong.
KiltedClaymore
Member
thank you for catching me on that.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Go here
http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/d...&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
A 220 grain lead bullet has a recommended starting charge of 3.2 grains of Bullseye and a max charge of 3.6. This just about duplicates original ballistics.
http://www.handloads.org/loaddata/d...&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
A 220 grain lead bullet has a recommended starting charge of 3.2 grains of Bullseye and a max charge of 3.6. This just about duplicates original ballistics.
Webley
Thank you for that "Vern Humphrey". And it is rekommended for Webley Mark "IV"? Or is the loading data ment for newer Webleys such as Mark"V" and "VI"? Do you think its ok to use it for mine? Who manufactering bullseye powder? Is it black powder?
Thank you for that "Vern Humphrey". And it is rekommended for Webley Mark "IV"? Or is the loading data ment for newer Webleys such as Mark"V" and "VI"? Do you think its ok to use it for mine? Who manufactering bullseye powder? Is it black powder?
Webley
Red dot an bullseye are wery near Vihtavuori N320, look here.
http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Burning-Rate-Chart.pdf
Red dot an bullseye are wery near Vihtavuori N320, look here.
http://www.vihtavuori-lapua.com/pdfs/Burning-Rate-Chart.pdf
mainmech48
Member
the stamps on the cylinder are probably proof marks, but I can't see them well enough to compare them with what few lists of British symbols I have.
I'd still suggest getting a professional gunsmith's opinion before shooting it. The revolver remains at-or-near a century old and there's a lot that can happen over that amount of time.
I gather that you are somewhere in Europe. Mostly because it would seem that a Vihtavuori powder might be more readily available to you than the ones we commonly use in these applications. I don't have their data manual, so I can't tell you whether they list any for the .455 Webley cartridge.
FWIW, loading data from component manufacturers is formulated to conform to a set of standards for dimensions and pressure limits for the particular cartridge as defined by a governing body, such as SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) here in the US and Canada.
This is to give the greatest possible assurance that those loads may be used with confidence in any weapon in good condition and originally chambered by the manufacturer for that cartridge.
If your Mk.IV was 'nitro' proofed, and those standards were essentially the same as they were for the version of the cartridge as used in later Mk. VI revolver, then the same data should be fine.
Still, in deference to it's age I suggest that you limit any loads you use in it to starting levels in the manuals and lead projectiles only.
I'd still suggest getting a professional gunsmith's opinion before shooting it. The revolver remains at-or-near a century old and there's a lot that can happen over that amount of time.
I gather that you are somewhere in Europe. Mostly because it would seem that a Vihtavuori powder might be more readily available to you than the ones we commonly use in these applications. I don't have their data manual, so I can't tell you whether they list any for the .455 Webley cartridge.
FWIW, loading data from component manufacturers is formulated to conform to a set of standards for dimensions and pressure limits for the particular cartridge as defined by a governing body, such as SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute) here in the US and Canada.
This is to give the greatest possible assurance that those loads may be used with confidence in any weapon in good condition and originally chambered by the manufacturer for that cartridge.
If your Mk.IV was 'nitro' proofed, and those standards were essentially the same as they were for the version of the cartridge as used in later Mk. VI revolver, then the same data should be fine.
Still, in deference to it's age I suggest that you limit any loads you use in it to starting levels in the manuals and lead projectiles only.
Vern Humphrey
Member
It will be safe -- especially of you stick to minimum loads -- for any Mark.
Yes.
Alliant (formerly Hercules) in the United States.
No. It is the earliest cannistered smokeless powder to reach the market.
Vern, I think those loads in that table may be a bit high, using the velocity as a guide. The original load for the .455 was a 265 grain bullet, with a MV of only 600 from the Mk VI and 570 from the Mk IV (due to the shorter barrel).
Definitely NEVER use .45 ACP or even .45 Colt loads.
Jim
Definitely NEVER use .45 ACP or even .45 Colt loads.
Jim
Vern Humphrey
Member
The table lists pressure -- how obtained, they don't say. All loads are around 12,600 tops -- which would be low for the .45 Colt in a wrought-iron frame.
I'd stick with the starting loads for this revolver, and probably something around 11,000 psi.
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